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From my perspective I think the EU/UK talks have gone nowhere because the brexiteers didn't have any strategy at all. It boils down to playing chicken and think

From my perspective I think the EU/UK talks have gone nowhere because the brexiteers didn't have any strategy at all. It boils down to playing chicken and thinking the rest of the EU will flinch at the threat of the UK cutting all ties, when it has been clear that the UK (under May and now Johnson) desperately wants those ties. But the UK is not willing (or politically able) to make any concessions for those - concessions that other states had to make before, to make the same deal. They're not just selected arbitrarily. It's tragic really, since the EU cannot move because it's bound to the will of the member states and their people - and the UK cannot move because it's bound to the will of its people (by which I mean the people of Northern Ireland, not the referendum). Now the UK press seemingly wants people to believe that the "the EU" can just decide on a deal, independent of the interests of its member states. And that sadly will burn itself into the minds of many Brits (at least the leavers) as a story that the EU bullied the UK without any reason, just to be mean.

repolfx 7y ago
"The EU" means both the institutions and the whims of a handful of national leaders. Nothing about what it does has anything to do with the will of its people. Where is that even measured? The text of the Withdrawal Agreement was written by the Commission, which controls the negotiations. And by the way, none of the things the UK is being asked to agree to have been presented as requirements to other countries. The only thing the UK really wants is a free trade deal. That is explicitly not on offer from the EU: ruled out immediately. That's available to countries not geographically near Brussels, but not to the UK. And that sadly will burn itself into the minds of many Brits (at least the leavers) as a story that the EU bullied the UK without any reason, just to be mean. The British press, despite what you may believe, is mostly pro-EU. Many Brits have concluded that about the EU all by themselves, based on the actual actions it's taken.
- dane-pgp 7y ago
  > The British press, despite what you may believe, is mostly pro-EU. How are you measuring that, exactly? Here is a reasonably quantitative analysis: https://rightsinfo.org/app/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-06-27-at-09.31.42.png https://rightsinfo.org/app/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-... from this article: https://rightsinfo.org/brexit-five-lessons/ https://rightsinfo.org/brexit-five-lessons/ > Many Brits have concluded that about the EU all by themselves, based on the actual actions it's taken. I don't know how many Brits have reached their conclusions about the EU "all by themselves", without basing their information at all on what the media and UK politicians have told them.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    I meant in the sense that most newspapers and media outlets are pro EU. Yes, the few that aren't have higher circulation. You can't easily disentangle cause and effect there though: do people read these papers because they feel they're presenting a more realistic view of the EU/the world, or do they decide what a realistic view is based on the papers they read? It's also worth remembering that broadcast media is largely pro EU, even though it's theoretically meant to be neutral. I don't know many who really believe it is though. At any rate, it's very easy to get news very slanted towards the EU in the UK if you want it. The fact that there's alternatives is different to in most of Europe, I've noticed, where the media is near universally pro EU and anti-member state. At most in Germany the ECB gets criticised.

repolfx 7y ago

"The EU" means both the institutions and the whims of a handful of national leaders. Nothing about what it does has anything to do with the will of its people. Where is that even measured? The text of the Withdrawal Agreement was written by the Commission, which controls the negotiations. And by the way, none of the things the UK is being asked to agree to have been presented as requirements to other countries. The only thing the UK really wants is a free trade deal. That is explicitly not on offer from the EU: ruled out immediately. That's available to countries not geographically near Brussels, but not to the UK. And that sadly will burn itself into the minds of many Brits (at least the leavers) as a story that the EU bullied the UK without any reason, just to be mean. The British press, despite what you may believe, is mostly pro-EU. Many Brits have concluded that about the EU all by themselves, based on the actual actions it's taken.

dane-pgp 7y ago
> The British press, despite what you may believe, is mostly pro-EU. How are you measuring that, exactly? Here is a reasonably quantitative analysis: https://rightsinfo.org/app/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-06-27-at-09.31.42.png https://rightsinfo.org/app/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-... from this article: https://rightsinfo.org/brexit-five-lessons/ https://rightsinfo.org/brexit-five-lessons/ > Many Brits have concluded that about the EU all by themselves, based on the actual actions it's taken. I don't know how many Brits have reached their conclusions about the EU "all by themselves", without basing their information at all on what the media and UK politicians have told them.
- repolfx 7y ago
  I meant in the sense that most newspapers and media outlets are pro EU. Yes, the few that aren't have higher circulation. You can't easily disentangle cause and effect there though: do people read these papers because they feel they're presenting a more realistic view of the EU/the world, or do they decide what a realistic view is based on the papers they read? It's also worth remembering that broadcast media is largely pro EU, even though it's theoretically meant to be neutral. I don't know many who really believe it is though. At any rate, it's very easy to get news very slanted towards the EU in the UK if you want it. The fact that there's alternatives is different to in most of Europe, I've noticed, where the media is near universally pro EU and anti-member state. At most in Germany the ECB gets criticised.