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> Anyone have some experiences with this distro (for better or worse) that they'd like to share? Not much of one, but for a while I was playing with multiple d

> Anyone have some experiences with this distro (for better or worse) that they'd like to share? Not much of one, but for a while I was playing with multiple distros trying to find the best possible power management for my laptop. (XPS 13 9380.) Clear did better than the Ubuntu installation that came with it -- but a dead octopus would have done better than that. It was sitting at 6W for non-CPU-intensive work, and was also noticeably snapppier. Windows on the same hardware sits at 8W when idling; same as Ubuntu. More recently I've tried Arch, though. Which somehow got that same workload down to 3.3W, albeit with a lot of adjustments... that didn't seem to affect performance, but did affect power use, clearly. It's just too bad that all of this optimization goes out the window if I fire up a browser, but I've had a fun time finding ways to avoid that. Apart from that, obviously Clear's software repository is far more limited than Arch's, and it also seems harder to contribute to. I don't think that problem will be going away soon.

nobleach 7y ago
I'd love to hear more about the tweaks you've done to Arch. I've gone little beyond a few power management things myself (On a Thinkpad X1C Gen 6). I get decent battery life, but I know it could be better. And giving up Arch would be a tough sell to myself.
- tbrock 7y ago
  The thing with arch is it’s mostly not more tweaks that give you better battery, it’s not having all the crap that Ubuntu preloads running that makes that happen.
  - nobleach 7y ago
    Folks think I'm crazy for using Arch as my main dev machine. I'm not an Ubuntu hater at all (it runs my main server in the basement at home)... but it'd be awfully hard to go back to using it as my main machine.
    - doubleunplussed 7y ago
      Really? Arch is... boring. Once you've set it up, nothing happens without your permission and you can just keep developing away. Sure you have updates imposed on you, but you can delay them a bit if you dont have time right now, and its not like upgrades are indefinitely avoidable on any other OS. Using Arch often gives me advance warning that my apps will break on users machines due to changes in libraries. I see the changes first and can add compatibility for the new library version such that it's fixed before affecting my users. I love it as a daily driver.
      - nobleach 7y ago
        Yeah, for me, it's "just right". Most detractors claim it's "bleeding edge". What? just because it's got something newer than Postgres 9.1 available?? (this was my argument against Debian/Ubuntu for a long time) Totally agree that it's a great daily driver. It has EVERYTHING!
  - UlisesAC4 7y ago
    Totally, Arch feels snappier in the same hardware that I am surprised that my machine can hold a lot of power for development.
- Filligree 7y ago
  Very little was needed at all, and what I did do is mostly working around firmware bugs. - Force deep sleep mode, as s2idle doesn't work. - Set the ASPM policy. To anything. Basically the default doesn't work. (I went with 'powersave', obviously.) - Run powertop --auto-tune on boot. - Set the cool-bottom thermal profile, but that's just to make it work as a lap top. - Run a BIOS upgrade. :V (fwupdmgr did the whole job for me~)
  - nobleach 7y ago
    Awesome, thanks. My BIOS upgrades are such a mess. I get notified that I have them.... but they always fail. I haven't dug into the logs to see why. This is honestly the most lazy I've ever been with a Linux install in 20 years, mostly because everything is working "well enough" that I haven't spent time tweaking it. Better battery life/cooler bottom does sound like something I should strive for though.
- yaantc 7y ago
  I have the same laptop as you. Just install the "tlp" package (The Laptop Project). I'm using Debian but the Arch package should have the same name. You can tweak the settings (/etc/default/tlp on Debian) but out of the box that should get you arround ~4W depending on what is running on your laptop. With light usage that gives more than 10 hours of battery life, even if you don't charge the battery to the max to increase its life (see START/STOP_CHARGE_THRESH_BAT0 for Thinkpads in the tlp configuration). If you have a SSD you can be aggressive on the disk suspend timeout, as there's no spin up/down wear issue as with mechanical disks. With this the battery life is good enough that I never felt the need to optimize further. [1] https://linrunner.de/en/tlp/tlp.html https://linrunner.de/en/tlp/tlp.html
  - nobleach 7y ago
    Fantastic. Thanks for the info. I've installed tlp, but I never really looked too deeply into it (yet). Most days at the office I'm plugged in - and that can be a problem too with the battery constantly receiving a charge.
- nullify88 7y ago
  I run Fedora on a Thinkpad X1C Gen 3. tlp[1] has been, by far, the best tool in optimising my power usage. powertop for some monitoring, as these days it recommends some less than ideal tunables, especially with regards to SATA power management ("med_power_with_dipm" vs "min_power" [2][3]). Some modules also have blacklists that prevent certain power saving modes from being enabled. This is true for the snd-hda-intel module to prevent a well known popping sound. Since disabling the blacklist, I haven't encountered the issue however YMMV. Similarly to enable ASPM on the PCIE bus, I've had to force it via a kernel parameter. With regards to the GPU, I noticed my Intel GPU can scale its frequency between 300mhz and 950mhz but the default minimum was set to 350mhz. Other such tweaks such as enabling frame buffer compression [4], can save you a few more watts. While the Linux defaults does its best to be suitable across different hardware configurations, you'll have to meddle with many parameters to get it customised to your configuration, and that could bring some instability with it so exercise some caution. Oh, and also be mindful of the apps you run. The Great Suspender for Chrome can save you some watts, cpu and memory by suspending tabs that are not in use. And switching to a light desktop such as Sway or i3 can also do wonders. As I type this, my battery is reporting a draw of 3.1 watts, 30% battery remaining with 4:40 of operating time at the current workload. [1] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TLP [2] - https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html [3] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Power_management#SATA_Active_Link_Power_Management https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Power_management#SATA_A... [4] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics#Framebuffer_compression_(enable_fbc) https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics#Framebuf...
  - nobleach 7y ago
    Thanks! Yeah, Just running Slack and Chrome (not to mention Spotify sometimes) can send my resource usage fairly high. I went back to Vim (from a couple of Electron-based editors running in vim-emulation mode). I used i3 a bit for about a year and never quite got it to my liking. Things like bluetooth and audio management seemed kinda hacked together - because they were. i3 isn't an environment, it's just a window manager. That's totally great, but KDE seems so seamless in this area. Worth looking into again though.
voltagex_ 7y ago
How did you measure the power usage on Windows? I'm assuming you used Powertop on Linux.
- Filligree 7y ago
  I used Powertop on Linux, yes. For Windows, I simply let the laptop run until it had used 50% of the battery. Watts = Joules / second. On Linux, I used the same methodo to calibrate against powertop. (But found less than 5% of discrepancy anyway.)
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    That's a good way to estimate but not appropriate for comparing to powertop, due to overhead. Also "50%" of energy is an estimate based on voltage, not actually energy usage. That's why Apple has stopped showing percentages in their OSes. You should use the same methodology for both.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      I'd assume the voltage->percentage function was worked out and the percentage displayed was thus accurate. It would be weird if that wasn't the case.
      - rabidrat 7y ago
        I think it varies with the age of the battery and the operating temperature (probably other things too). Although if they were clever they could probably incorporate those parameters as well..
        Filligree 7y ago
        They use coulomb counting, along with an estimate of how much safely-usable energy is left in the battery. That estimate is usually accurate, but it can drift a bit over time if you never fully recharge or discharge the battery. Also, when the battery gets old it starts having trouble delivering full current when mostly discharged, which is why you'll sometimes see shutdowns at 5-15% remaining.
aidenn0 7y ago
Firefox will suspend running pages when it is unmapped, so I put it on its own virtual desktop and only switch to that desktop when I need a webpage.
- jlgaddis 7y ago
  And, if you're like me and have dozens of tabs open for weeks on end, the OneTab extension is pretty awesome too.
  - 0xAF 7y ago
    I'm using "Auto Tab Discard" and I'm happy with it. It "unloads" the unused tabs and reloads them once you switch back to them.
mycall 7y ago
You could do further browser optimizations through about:about
cerberusss 7y ago
The XPS 13 9380 is available with Linux pre-installed, why would you want to mess with that? Or was it a fun/hobby thing?
- Filligree 7y ago
  I feel that going from 8W to 3W, while gaining a more usable system that also sits on ZFS instead of ext4, is more than enough reason. ext4 doesn't detect corruption. How am I supposed to trust it?
  - cerberusss 7y ago
    It seems like a good deal but what about the support and the upgrade path from Dell? I get what you're saying about the filesystem. Personally, I use par2 for the most important things (photos).
    - Filligree 7y ago
      What about it? It doesn't seem to be enormously useful, given I can do so much better on my own. I got the laptop to have well-supported hardware, not because I was expecting a lot of help from Dell.
      - cerberusss 7y ago
        Is that all there is to it, just well supported hardware? Dell didn't configure Redhat in any way, to make better use of the hardware? I'm thinking trackpad, sleep and hibernation, graphics etc.?
        Filligree 7y ago
        Ubuntu, not Redhat. And no, it seems they didn't. They haven't forced deep sleep, for example.
        7y ago
sydney6 7y ago
IIRC Clear Linux's cpufreq governor defaults to performance in contrast to the powersave governor, which most other linux distributions appear to be using. Hence the difference in idle power consumption, i guess.

nobleach 7y ago

I'd love to hear more about the tweaks you've done to Arch. I've gone little beyond a few power management things myself (On a Thinkpad X1C Gen 6). I get decent battery life, but I know it could be better. And giving up Arch would be a tough sell to myself.

tbrock 7y ago
The thing with arch is it’s mostly not more tweaks that give you better battery, it’s not having all the crap that Ubuntu preloads running that makes that happen.
- nobleach 7y ago
  Folks think I'm crazy for using Arch as my main dev machine. I'm not an Ubuntu hater at all (it runs my main server in the basement at home)... but it'd be awfully hard to go back to using it as my main machine.
  - doubleunplussed 7y ago
    Really? Arch is... boring. Once you've set it up, nothing happens without your permission and you can just keep developing away. Sure you have updates imposed on you, but you can delay them a bit if you dont have time right now, and its not like upgrades are indefinitely avoidable on any other OS. Using Arch often gives me advance warning that my apps will break on users machines due to changes in libraries. I see the changes first and can add compatibility for the new library version such that it's fixed before affecting my users. I love it as a daily driver.
    - nobleach 7y ago
      Yeah, for me, it's "just right". Most detractors claim it's "bleeding edge". What? just because it's got something newer than Postgres 9.1 available?? (this was my argument against Debian/Ubuntu for a long time) Totally agree that it's a great daily driver. It has EVERYTHING!
- UlisesAC4 7y ago
  Totally, Arch feels snappier in the same hardware that I am surprised that my machine can hold a lot of power for development.
Filligree 7y ago
Very little was needed at all, and what I did do is mostly working around firmware bugs. - Force deep sleep mode, as s2idle doesn't work. - Set the ASPM policy. To anything. Basically the default doesn't work. (I went with 'powersave', obviously.) - Run powertop --auto-tune on boot. - Set the cool-bottom thermal profile, but that's just to make it work as a lap top. - Run a BIOS upgrade. :V (fwupdmgr did the whole job for me~)
- nobleach 7y ago
  Awesome, thanks. My BIOS upgrades are such a mess. I get notified that I have them.... but they always fail. I haven't dug into the logs to see why. This is honestly the most lazy I've ever been with a Linux install in 20 years, mostly because everything is working "well enough" that I haven't spent time tweaking it. Better battery life/cooler bottom does sound like something I should strive for though.
yaantc 7y ago
I have the same laptop as you. Just install the "tlp" package (The Laptop Project). I'm using Debian but the Arch package should have the same name. You can tweak the settings (/etc/default/tlp on Debian) but out of the box that should get you arround ~4W depending on what is running on your laptop. With light usage that gives more than 10 hours of battery life, even if you don't charge the battery to the max to increase its life (see START/STOP_CHARGE_THRESH_BAT0 for Thinkpads in the tlp configuration). If you have a SSD you can be aggressive on the disk suspend timeout, as there's no spin up/down wear issue as with mechanical disks. With this the battery life is good enough that I never felt the need to optimize further. [1] https://linrunner.de/en/tlp/tlp.html https://linrunner.de/en/tlp/tlp.html
- nobleach 7y ago
  Fantastic. Thanks for the info. I've installed tlp, but I never really looked too deeply into it (yet). Most days at the office I'm plugged in - and that can be a problem too with the battery constantly receiving a charge.
nullify88 7y ago
I run Fedora on a Thinkpad X1C Gen 3. tlp[1] has been, by far, the best tool in optimising my power usage. powertop for some monitoring, as these days it recommends some less than ideal tunables, especially with regards to SATA power management ("med_power_with_dipm" vs "min_power" [2][3]). Some modules also have blacklists that prevent certain power saving modes from being enabled. This is true for the snd-hda-intel module to prevent a well known popping sound. Since disabling the blacklist, I haven't encountered the issue however YMMV. Similarly to enable ASPM on the PCIE bus, I've had to force it via a kernel parameter. With regards to the GPU, I noticed my Intel GPU can scale its frequency between 300mhz and 950mhz but the default minimum was set to 350mhz. Other such tweaks such as enabling frame buffer compression [4], can save you a few more watts. While the Linux defaults does its best to be suitable across different hardware configurations, you'll have to meddle with many parameters to get it customised to your configuration, and that could bring some instability with it so exercise some caution. Oh, and also be mindful of the apps you run. The Great Suspender for Chrome can save you some watts, cpu and memory by suspending tabs that are not in use. And switching to a light desktop such as Sway or i3 can also do wonders. As I type this, my battery is reporting a draw of 3.1 watts, 30% battery remaining with 4:40 of operating time at the current workload. [1] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TLP [2] - https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/18412.html [3] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Power_management#SATA_Active_Link_Power_Management https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Power_management#SATA_A... [4] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics#Framebuffer_compression_(enable_fbc) https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics#Framebuf...
- nobleach 7y ago
  Thanks! Yeah, Just running Slack and Chrome (not to mention Spotify sometimes) can send my resource usage fairly high. I went back to Vim (from a couple of Electron-based editors running in vim-emulation mode). I used i3 a bit for about a year and never quite got it to my liking. Things like bluetooth and audio management seemed kinda hacked together - because they were. i3 isn't an environment, it's just a window manager. That's totally great, but KDE seems so seamless in this area. Worth looking into again though.

voltagex_ 7y ago

How did you measure the power usage on Windows? I'm assuming you used Powertop on Linux.

Filligree 7y ago
I used Powertop on Linux, yes. For Windows, I simply let the laptop run until it had used 50% of the battery. Watts = Joules / second. On Linux, I used the same methodo to calibrate against powertop. (But found less than 5% of discrepancy anyway.)
- lonelappde 7y ago
  That's a good way to estimate but not appropriate for comparing to powertop, due to overhead. Also "50%" of energy is an estimate based on voltage, not actually energy usage. That's why Apple has stopped showing percentages in their OSes. You should use the same methodology for both.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    I'd assume the voltage->percentage function was worked out and the percentage displayed was thus accurate. It would be weird if that wasn't the case.
    - rabidrat 7y ago
      I think it varies with the age of the battery and the operating temperature (probably other things too). Although if they were clever they could probably incorporate those parameters as well..
      - Filligree 7y ago
        They use coulomb counting, along with an estimate of how much safely-usable energy is left in the battery. That estimate is usually accurate, but it can drift a bit over time if you never fully recharge or discharge the battery. Also, when the battery gets old it starts having trouble delivering full current when mostly discharged, which is why you'll sometimes see shutdowns at 5-15% remaining.

aidenn0 7y ago

Firefox will suspend running pages when it is unmapped, so I put it on its own virtual desktop and only switch to that desktop when I need a webpage.

jlgaddis 7y ago
And, if you're like me and have dozens of tabs open for weeks on end, the OneTab extension is pretty awesome too.
- 0xAF 7y ago
  I'm using "Auto Tab Discard" and I'm happy with it. It "unloads" the unused tabs and reloads them once you switch back to them.

mycall 7y ago

You could do further browser optimizations through about:about

cerberusss 7y ago

The XPS 13 9380 is available with Linux pre-installed, why would you want to mess with that? Or was it a fun/hobby thing?

Filligree 7y ago
I feel that going from 8W to 3W, while gaining a more usable system that also sits on ZFS instead of ext4, is more than enough reason. ext4 doesn't detect corruption. How am I supposed to trust it?
- cerberusss 7y ago
  It seems like a good deal but what about the support and the upgrade path from Dell? I get what you're saying about the filesystem. Personally, I use par2 for the most important things (photos).
  - Filligree 7y ago
    What about it? It doesn't seem to be enormously useful, given I can do so much better on my own. I got the laptop to have well-supported hardware, not because I was expecting a lot of help from Dell.
    - cerberusss 7y ago
      Is that all there is to it, just well supported hardware? Dell didn't configure Redhat in any way, to make better use of the hardware? I'm thinking trackpad, sleep and hibernation, graphics etc.?
      - Filligree 7y ago
        Ubuntu, not Redhat. And no, it seems they didn't. They haven't forced deep sleep, for example.
        7y ago

sydney6 7y ago

IIRC Clear Linux's cpufreq governor defaults to performance in contrast to the powersave governor, which most other linux distributions appear to be using. Hence the difference in idle power consumption, i guess.