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>Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and th

>Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and then you go ahead and implement those bad things as an engineer...you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

eitland 7y ago
> you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it. ... as long as you are aware of it or should have been aware of it.
slowmovintarget 7y ago
Because making the crowbar is part of the crime? No, I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. They see solving the technical problem and completing the task. Senior engineers with a lot more experience have insight into "why" but that's often the point when they're given responsibility to guide others. The "should we do this?" question rests on the shoulders of those with insight that faces the outside world, and not just the programmer's editor on the screen. That's management. What do I know about it? Was an engineer (programmer), and now I run teams of engineers. I often have to direct them on how not to solve a problem, for reasons of customer privacy, security, or responsibility, as much as to what problem we must solve. Responsibility increases the higher up you go in the management chain.
- eropple 7y ago
  > Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. Then they are defective citizens. Citizenry before a job is just not that complicated. Everyone is complicit in dirty work and I've very happily fired clients and quit jobs for being dirty. Do thou likewise or have your fellow citizens find you wanting for it. It's not hard.
  - jhall1468 7y ago
    The problem here is dirty isn't well-defined. You are playing the moral superiority card without knowing what your particular moral/ethical line is. Seems HN is primarily comprised of people without families that can just quit their job and it's not big deal, all in the name of their particular set of moral standards. You can tell when they say things like "it's not hard" when deciding to quit their job. For the fast majority of people, it is hard. Most peoples ethical guidelines shift rapidly when the alternative means harming their loved ones. It's definitely not hard to proclaim things aren't hard. Reality is often different.
    - runamok 7y ago
      Yup. We could argue every bit of marketing is evil. So much of it is targeted at children or people that are otherwise easy to convince to buy shit they probably don't need, and based on US retirement savings, probably can't afford. I worked in free to play games for a time and I rationalized you could get entertainment value up to a point and if you wanted more you paid. However, we all know certain people can't stop at that point. Same reason why casinos flourish. Ethics CAN be clear cut but even things like drones or surveillance equipment can have both good and evil applications.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  My spouse is an engineer and we often talk about the engineering ethics module where students were taught to think about such things using examples like the Ford Pinto, the O-rings on the space shuttle etc. If you had worked at Ford and designed, say, the steering wheel or transmission of the Pinto, you might well be excused for not appreciating the flaws in its design. But if you were one of the engineers that was asked to put the gas tank up near the rear fender where it was much likelier to rupture in the event of a wholly foreseeable collision, then you had a responsibility to consider and push back against cost-saving measures that were likely to jeopardize riders' safety. In general, if a manager is telling you not to worry about something, it's shady.

eitland 7y ago

> you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it. ... as long as you are aware of it or should have been aware of it.

slowmovintarget 7y ago

Because making the crowbar is part of the crime? No, I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. They see solving the technical problem and completing the task. Senior engineers with a lot more experience have insight into "why" but that's often the point when they're given responsibility to guide others. The "should we do this?" question rests on the shoulders of those with insight that faces the outside world, and not just the programmer's editor on the screen. That's management. What do I know about it? Was an engineer (programmer), and now I run teams of engineers. I often have to direct them on how not to solve a problem, for reasons of customer privacy, security, or responsibility, as much as to what problem we must solve. Responsibility increases the higher up you go in the management chain.

eropple 7y ago
> Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. Then they are defective citizens. Citizenry before a job is just not that complicated. Everyone is complicit in dirty work and I've very happily fired clients and quit jobs for being dirty. Do thou likewise or have your fellow citizens find you wanting for it. It's not hard.
- jhall1468 7y ago
  The problem here is dirty isn't well-defined. You are playing the moral superiority card without knowing what your particular moral/ethical line is. Seems HN is primarily comprised of people without families that can just quit their job and it's not big deal, all in the name of their particular set of moral standards. You can tell when they say things like "it's not hard" when deciding to quit their job. For the fast majority of people, it is hard. Most peoples ethical guidelines shift rapidly when the alternative means harming their loved ones. It's definitely not hard to proclaim things aren't hard. Reality is often different.
  - runamok 7y ago
    Yup. We could argue every bit of marketing is evil. So much of it is targeted at children or people that are otherwise easy to convince to buy shit they probably don't need, and based on US retirement savings, probably can't afford. I worked in free to play games for a time and I rationalized you could get entertainment value up to a point and if you wanted more you paid. However, we all know certain people can't stop at that point. Same reason why casinos flourish. Ethics CAN be clear cut but even things like drones or surveillance equipment can have both good and evil applications.
anigbrowl 7y ago
My spouse is an engineer and we often talk about the engineering ethics module where students were taught to think about such things using examples like the Ford Pinto, the O-rings on the space shuttle etc. If you had worked at Ford and designed, say, the steering wheel or transmission of the Pinto, you might well be excused for not appreciating the flaws in its design. But if you were one of the engineers that was asked to put the gas tank up near the rear fender where it was much likelier to rupture in the event of a wholly foreseeable collision, then you had a responsibility to consider and push back against cost-saving measures that were likely to jeopardize riders' safety. In general, if a manager is telling you not to worry about something, it's shady.