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>>> Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been bette

>>> Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. It is an excuse. If my livelihood depends on it, my children's health insurance depends on it (especially if you have kids that need continuous care), my kids university tuition depends on it, etc, etc... So, personally that's a very narrow view to take. Unless there is a support system that can maintain comparable quality of life for engineers who speak up and quit it's not going to happen. I know I wouldn't care unless someone really made it worth my while to do so.

navigatesol 7y ago
>I know I wouldn't care unless someone really made it worth my while to do so. This mentality is appalling.
tfehring 7y ago
Your and your children’s well being depend on your having a job. They don’t depend strictly on your current job. Approximately all engineers at big tech companies could put in their 2 week’s notice on Monday and find another job above the 95th salary percentile during that 2 week period.
- ghaff 7y ago
  That is a very optimistic view about how easy it is for the average engineer (many of whom are not even in software) to land a new job. Especially one that doesn't require them to move or otherwise make significant changes.
  - tfehring 7y ago
    My comment referred to engineers at big tech companies, not the average engineer more generally. The job market is still really strong for engineers across the board, not just SWE. Experience at big tech companies still looks great on a resume, and those companies tend to be geographically concentrated in areas with lots of other tech companies. To be clear, those engineers' quality of life may be dependent on working at big tech companies. But their ability to make a living and support their families is not. They have made the decision to contribute to abuses of human rights in exchange for a larger salary (and prestige, among other factors), and at least in my eyes, they're just as responsible for the consequences of that decision as their managers are.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      I agree with your basic point. I'm just saying you may overestimate the ease with which engineers, whether older ones, those in some more specialized area, etc, can leave one job and start another similarly compensated one (or even one at a lesser but still ballpark salary) in a couple weeks. Or indeed a job in their general area at all.
maleno 7y ago
Don't want to open up a whole other can of worms but this is very clearly the role of a union in quite a number of industries. Such a body would offer both legal and financial support in a situation where an engineer was being asked to do something they felt was illegal or sketchy.
anigbrowl 7y ago
If you don't care about anything beyond your convenience then why should I care about what happens to you?

navigatesol 7y ago

>I know I wouldn't care unless someone really made it worth my while to do so. This mentality is appalling.

tfehring 7y ago

Your and your children’s well being depend on your having a job. They don’t depend strictly on your current job. Approximately all engineers at big tech companies could put in their 2 week’s notice on Monday and find another job above the 95th salary percentile during that 2 week period.

ghaff 7y ago
That is a very optimistic view about how easy it is for the average engineer (many of whom are not even in software) to land a new job. Especially one that doesn't require them to move or otherwise make significant changes.
- tfehring 7y ago
  My comment referred to engineers at big tech companies, not the average engineer more generally. The job market is still really strong for engineers across the board, not just SWE. Experience at big tech companies still looks great on a resume, and those companies tend to be geographically concentrated in areas with lots of other tech companies. To be clear, those engineers' quality of life may be dependent on working at big tech companies. But their ability to make a living and support their families is not. They have made the decision to contribute to abuses of human rights in exchange for a larger salary (and prestige, among other factors), and at least in my eyes, they're just as responsible for the consequences of that decision as their managers are.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I agree with your basic point. I'm just saying you may overestimate the ease with which engineers, whether older ones, those in some more specialized area, etc, can leave one job and start another similarly compensated one (or even one at a lesser but still ballpark salary) in a couple weeks. Or indeed a job in their general area at all.

maleno 7y ago

Don't want to open up a whole other can of worms but this is very clearly the role of a union in quite a number of industries. Such a body would offer both legal and financial support in a situation where an engineer was being asked to do something they felt was illegal or sketchy.

anigbrowl 7y ago

If you don't care about anything beyond your convenience then why should I care about what happens to you?