7 ms·

Very simple. Facebook is a company. You can legislate laws that determine what companies are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do. Particularly if

by ijonas 7y ago

Very simple. Facebook is a company. You can legislate laws that determine what companies are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do. Particularly if it concerns financial instruments. A "ban" doesn't need to be technological.

mrtksn 7y ago
How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet? Is libra tied to an account like game money? AFAIK it's a cryptocurrency? Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case?
- pjmlp 7y ago
  You make its use a criminal charge.
  - mrtksn 7y ago
    I'm sure that they keep spare guillotines around but I'm not sure that it would be a popular thing to punish random Louis libra user for his few hundres Euro transaction when Facebook is paying less in taxes than him, figuratively speaking.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Really? Sadly it is not uncommon to see people going to jail for stealing a few chicken because they were hungry, while many company owners and politicians hardly face any jail time for their proven corruption affairs. Being popular and law seldom come hand in hand.
      - mrtksn 7y ago
        Stealing a chicken is very different from using something. Stealing chicken is no doubt immoral for most people but punishing the usage of something that Americans can use will not fly unless the USA becomes the arch-enemy and using Libra is perceived as treason and way or unfair enrichment. Stealing a chicken has a clearly defined victim and stealing, not even piracy or patent infringement is well understood and universally condemned action.
        _r_o_y_ 7y ago
        Tell that to all the people in jail for smoking weed.
        mrtksn 7y ago
        Why? Lot's of people are sympathetic towards them, that's why it's no longer illegal in many countries.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you think this is so hard? You pass a law. Most people don't break the law. You make it illegal for banks to transfer to known Libra things. You audit people. You apply big fines. Murder is illegal but that doesn't mean nobody can commit murder.
  - nextlevelwizard 7y ago
    Murder is also immoral. Libra is hardly morally questionable. If you want a better comparison take (software) piracy. Piracy is illegal and while I'm sure Steam, Spotify, and Netflix has reduced it a lot it is still thriving and many people break the law if not daily at least monthly. Best thing you can do is to make a law that forces banks to prevent payments to known Libra sellers, but again if there is value in Libra this hardly makes a difference. For one unless there is official list of every entity that sells them and they get instantly blocked you could just buy them before they get blocked. Secondly you could just use PayPal to transfer the money (first to your PayPal wallet and then to the seller), EU is not crazy enough to block PayPal without an alternative in sight. Secondly take any gray-market on the Internet. On these markets you can already use a range of payment methods starting with freaking Starbucks Gift Cards to just plain old cash. Yes, yes, just like most laws it will keep the honest people honest and we can assume that at least in the start that will be most of the population, but such a law would be so trivial to bypass that if there is any benefit of having some Libra people will have it and outside of completely breaking privacy of EU citizens there is nothing they can do about it.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      It's Facebook. If we were talking about a privacy-conscious system, maybe, but it's guaranteed to be the opposite. Facebook wouldn't do something like this without tying it to the user's FB account.
    - lapnitnelav 7y ago
      If murder is immoral, what are death penalty and soldiers killing other soldiers (when it's not civilians)? Besides the context (and the legal aspect), they are the same act, homicide with intent. Their morality seem to be different depending who you ask. And as for Libra being made illegal, I don't see what value it provides in EU to make it worth breaking the law.
- SanchoPanda 7y ago
  You tell Facebook that if a French national is offered Libra you will fine them. If they complain they don't have the tech to prevent that. You fine them anyway. The theme here is that Facebook has lost the trust of too many important people, and maybe they just want to hurt what looks like another enormous American tech company that has been too careless and too aggressive.
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    If they complain that they're not able to identify who lives in France you bring the hammer of the law down; hard! They would just have conclusively proven that they ignore KYC regulations and are running the biggest money laundring operation ever
    - alacombe 7y ago
      French citizen (even with French addresses) are not prohibited to do things which would be illegal in France but legal where they currently reside. So KYC is utterly useless in this case.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  > Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case? It's about time we all disabused ourselves of the libertarian utopian dream that just because cryptocurrency is on a distributed ledger than governments can't control it. "How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet" - quite simply, by telling them they'd go to jail, or get a hefty fine, for doing that. Companies are even easier to control than people because their whole existence is made possible by laws and regulations of governments.
  - primroot 7y ago
    > Companies are even easier to control than people because their whole existence is made possible by laws and regulations of governments. And this is how we know the "small government" slogan is an absolute sham.
  - drchaos 7y ago
    > "How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet" - quite simply, by telling them they'd go to jail, or get a hefty fine, for doing that. That method does not work very well for e.g. weed.
- remcob 7y ago
  AFAIK, the Libra design is very centralized (which follows from the throughput requirements). All usage of it would be through Facebook's servers. So that would be where you can implement any censorship.
- shakna 7y ago
  > Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case? Not quite, in the case of Libra. Only a handful of companies control the nodes. Which makes it relatively easy to enforce a ban.
  - alacombe 7y ago
    That's completely false. Today, you don't need to interact with the NYSE to buy stock listed in the NYSE. There is plenty on intermediaries providing the service for a fee.
    - shakna 7y ago
      If the half dozen nodes are required to block payments originating from a nation, then it would require illegal middlemen to accomplish that, and they can continually be shut down.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Same as banks have to inform tax or money laundering authorities when certain types of transactions take place, you require any French bank to notify the currency crime unit of a transaction from a known Libra exchange. Maybe you fine the bank for accepting the transaction without proof it was a legal cryptocurrency.
- kazen44 7y ago
  why would people want to use libra? Especially if the currency is declared illegal to use inside the EU/Eurozone. Let's not forget that the euro is a stable currency compared to most other markets libra wants to compete in (the developing world). What is in it for me as a consumer? Atleast the Eurozone has rules in place to protect my savings (up to 10.000 euro[0]). Libra brings nothing to the table in terms of transaction speed or costs either (for the consumer atleast). 1 https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers/tell-me-more/html/deposit_guarantee.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers/tell-me-more/html/depos...
  - pjc50 7y ago
    People who want to buy drugs over the internet, but using their real name facebook account? (No, I don't get it either)
kerng 7y ago
Facebook can't prevent people from using it via fake profiles, etc. that have the intent to bypass things. Unless we want Facebook profiles to always be official profiles (validated via government ID) - which the government would like. France and Germany can entertain IP blocking these services and put laws in place for citizens to not use it. Interestingly though, this is exactly what a free country should not do I guess.
- gjulianm 7y ago
  Unless a full economy develops under Libra, people will want to convert their Libra to Euros. So you ban the exchanges from operating in your country and force banks to reject any transfers from them. Make using Libra hard enough that most potential users are discouraged, and with low adoption the currency becomes useless. > Interestingly though, this is exactly what a free country should not do I guess. I think a free country should be able to put restrictions in place to avoid foreign profit-driven corporations to interfere and manipulate their economy.
  - alacombe 7y ago
    France and Germany are not "the Euro" and IIRC can't decide on their own on EU monetary policies. If they were, we wouldn't be far from the colonial era.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by ijonas 7y ago

mrtksn 7y ago

How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet? Is libra tied to an account like game money? AFAIK it's a cryptocurrency? Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case?

pjmlp 7y ago
You make its use a criminal charge.
- mrtksn 7y ago
  I'm sure that they keep spare guillotines around but I'm not sure that it would be a popular thing to punish random Louis libra user for his few hundres Euro transaction when Facebook is paying less in taxes than him, figuratively speaking.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Really? Sadly it is not uncommon to see people going to jail for stealing a few chicken because they were hungry, while many company owners and politicians hardly face any jail time for their proven corruption affairs. Being popular and law seldom come hand in hand.
    - mrtksn 7y ago
      Stealing a chicken is very different from using something. Stealing chicken is no doubt immoral for most people but punishing the usage of something that Americans can use will not fly unless the USA becomes the arch-enemy and using Libra is perceived as treason and way or unfair enrichment. Stealing a chicken has a clearly defined victim and stealing, not even piracy or patent infringement is well understood and universally condemned action.
      - _r_o_y_ 7y ago
        Tell that to all the people in jail for smoking weed.
        mrtksn 7y ago
        Why? Lot's of people are sympathetic towards them, that's why it's no longer illegal in many countries.
freddie_mercury 7y ago
I'm not sure why you think this is so hard? You pass a law. Most people don't break the law. You make it illegal for banks to transfer to known Libra things. You audit people. You apply big fines. Murder is illegal but that doesn't mean nobody can commit murder.
- nextlevelwizard 7y ago
  Murder is also immoral. Libra is hardly morally questionable. If you want a better comparison take (software) piracy. Piracy is illegal and while I'm sure Steam, Spotify, and Netflix has reduced it a lot it is still thriving and many people break the law if not daily at least monthly. Best thing you can do is to make a law that forces banks to prevent payments to known Libra sellers, but again if there is value in Libra this hardly makes a difference. For one unless there is official list of every entity that sells them and they get instantly blocked you could just buy them before they get blocked. Secondly you could just use PayPal to transfer the money (first to your PayPal wallet and then to the seller), EU is not crazy enough to block PayPal without an alternative in sight. Secondly take any gray-market on the Internet. On these markets you can already use a range of payment methods starting with freaking Starbucks Gift Cards to just plain old cash. Yes, yes, just like most laws it will keep the honest people honest and we can assume that at least in the start that will be most of the population, but such a law would be so trivial to bypass that if there is any benefit of having some Libra people will have it and outside of completely breaking privacy of EU citizens there is nothing they can do about it.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    It's Facebook. If we were talking about a privacy-conscious system, maybe, but it's guaranteed to be the opposite. Facebook wouldn't do something like this without tying it to the user's FB account.
  - lapnitnelav 7y ago
    If murder is immoral, what are death penalty and soldiers killing other soldiers (when it's not civilians)? Besides the context (and the legal aspect), they are the same act, homicide with intent. Their morality seem to be different depending who you ask. And as for Libra being made illegal, I don't see what value it provides in EU to make it worth breaking the law.
SanchoPanda 7y ago
You tell Facebook that if a French national is offered Libra you will fine them. If they complain they don't have the tech to prevent that. You fine them anyway. The theme here is that Facebook has lost the trust of too many important people, and maybe they just want to hurt what looks like another enormous American tech company that has been too careless and too aggressive.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  If they complain that they're not able to identify who lives in France you bring the hammer of the law down; hard! They would just have conclusively proven that they ignore KYC regulations and are running the biggest money laundring operation ever
  - alacombe 7y ago
    French citizen (even with French addresses) are not prohibited to do things which would be illegal in France but legal where they currently reside. So KYC is utterly useless in this case.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
> Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case? It's about time we all disabused ourselves of the libertarian utopian dream that just because cryptocurrency is on a distributed ledger than governments can't control it. "How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet" - quite simply, by telling them they'd go to jail, or get a hefty fine, for doing that. Companies are even easier to control than people because their whole existence is made possible by laws and regulations of governments.
- primroot 7y ago
  > Companies are even easier to control than people because their whole existence is made possible by laws and regulations of governments. And this is how we know the "small government" slogan is an absolute sham.
- drchaos 7y ago
  > "How do you stop people obtaining it and using it through their buddies on the internet" - quite simply, by telling them they'd go to jail, or get a hefty fine, for doing that. That method does not work very well for e.g. weed.
remcob 7y ago
AFAIK, the Libra design is very centralized (which follows from the throughput requirements). All usage of it would be through Facebook's servers. So that would be where you can implement any censorship.
shakna 7y ago
> Haven't looked at the details but cryptocurrency implies it stays on some distributed ladger and no 3rd parties have control over the transactions. Isn't that the case? Not quite, in the case of Libra. Only a handful of companies control the nodes. Which makes it relatively easy to enforce a ban.
- alacombe 7y ago
  That's completely false. Today, you don't need to interact with the NYSE to buy stock listed in the NYSE. There is plenty on intermediaries providing the service for a fee.
  - shakna 7y ago
    If the half dozen nodes are required to block payments originating from a nation, then it would require illegal middlemen to accomplish that, and they can continually be shut down.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Same as banks have to inform tax or money laundering authorities when certain types of transactions take place, you require any French bank to notify the currency crime unit of a transaction from a known Libra exchange. Maybe you fine the bank for accepting the transaction without proof it was a legal cryptocurrency.
kazen44 7y ago
why would people want to use libra? Especially if the currency is declared illegal to use inside the EU/Eurozone. Let's not forget that the euro is a stable currency compared to most other markets libra wants to compete in (the developing world). What is in it for me as a consumer? Atleast the Eurozone has rules in place to protect my savings (up to 10.000 euro[0]). Libra brings nothing to the table in terms of transaction speed or costs either (for the consumer atleast). 1 https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers/tell-me-more/html/deposit_guarantee.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers/tell-me-more/html/depos...
- pjc50 7y ago
  People who want to buy drugs over the internet, but using their real name facebook account? (No, I don't get it either)

kerng 7y ago

Facebook can't prevent people from using it via fake profiles, etc. that have the intent to bypass things. Unless we want Facebook profiles to always be official profiles (validated via government ID) - which the government would like. France and Germany can entertain IP blocking these services and put laws in place for citizens to not use it. Interestingly though, this is exactly what a free country should not do I guess.

gjulianm 7y ago
Unless a full economy develops under Libra, people will want to convert their Libra to Euros. So you ban the exchanges from operating in your country and force banks to reject any transfers from them. Make using Libra hard enough that most potential users are discouraged, and with low adoption the currency becomes useless. > Interestingly though, this is exactly what a free country should not do I guess. I think a free country should be able to put restrictions in place to avoid foreign profit-driven corporations to interfere and manipulate their economy.
- alacombe 7y ago
  France and Germany are not "the Euro" and IIRC can't decide on their own on EU monetary policies. If they were, we wouldn't be far from the colonial era.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]