3 ms·

Who are the people thus excluded by RMS?

by interfixus 7y ago

mikeash 7y ago
People who aren’t comfortable associating with someone who defends child rape.
- interfixus 7y ago
  Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.
  - Jonnax 7y ago
    “ I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children.” https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      It does, but how badly, it depends? What are the worst kinds, what are relatively harmless if any? Does our current handling thereof help or harm? If those questions are not answered, we're flying blind. Also there are some stupid things done like putting 18 y.o. boy in jail for sleeping with his 16 y.o. girlfriend, consensually. Someone should do actual not politically correct and not victim culture motivated research. It would be hard work, reaching out to the victims and running longitudinal observation. If there is such research, I'd like to read it.
      - DanBC 7y ago
        Child sexual abuse is strongly linked to a range of mental illness later on in life. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(19)30286-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... > Someone should do actual not politically correct and not victim culture motivated research. Someone should take a few minutes to read the reams of research that has been written about this rather than parotting NAMBLA discussion points.
        eesmith 7y ago
        I'll add that "harm" doesn't make a difference - lack of consent is what's at issue. If someone has sex with a woman in a coma, there's no harm to the woman. There's no need for physical force. It's still sexual assault. Unconscious people, children, and sex slaves are not able to give meaningful consent. Stallman doesn't appear to understand the role of consent in these laws.
  - shagie 7y ago
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... has a redacted email thread.
    - interfixus 7y ago
      For those who might prefer unredacted, here's what Stallman is reported to have said: "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing.Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates."
      - mjg59 7y ago
        Of course, the definition of "sexual assault" presumes no such thing.
        AstralStorm 7y ago
        The law definition in the United States, you mean. In Poland, it requires use of force or coercion on part of the person doing the sexual act. Without it, say drugging and then letting someone else do it, it's "just" assault. (The other person is committing sexual assault.) What Epstein did is called pimping and also punishable by law. Potentially also abduction or assault. Forcing a minor to commence a sexual act is a separate category of pimping (pimping a minor) that's yet more harshly punished. Sex with minor is also punishable by law separately. (With some exceptions and discretion by the judge.) Now there is a strong association with sexual assault, though circumstances can leave it as just sex with minor. Depends on prosecutor and judge. So it is likely Epstein would be convicted of multiple crimes and potentially recidivism (repeat offense) and organized crime, while Minsky would be convicted for sex with minor, not any kind of assault. Note that repeat offense means Epstein would not be offered bail nor allowed a reduced sentence.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    Maybe read the link about which we are all talking.
    - interfixus 7y ago
      A less condescending tone would be appreciated. I read that article - and formed certain opinions about it - long before it was posted to HN.
      - mikeash 7y ago
        The whole thing is about RMS defending child rape on the basis that legal age limits are stupid and that it’s not rape if the child is willing. If you managed to miss all that then maybe try again.
        interfixus 7y ago
        If you could kindly point me to the passage where Stallman talks about rape, I would be much obliged.
        mikeash 7y ago
        “...the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.” The context is an underage sex slave. Having sex with her is rape by definition in two different ways.

Who are the people thus excluded by RMS?

mikeash 7y ago

People who aren’t comfortable associating with someone who defends child rape.

interfixus 7y ago
Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.
- Jonnax 7y ago
  “ I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children.” https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    It does, but how badly, it depends? What are the worst kinds, what are relatively harmless if any? Does our current handling thereof help or harm? If those questions are not answered, we're flying blind. Also there are some stupid things done like putting 18 y.o. boy in jail for sleeping with his 16 y.o. girlfriend, consensually. Someone should do actual not politically correct and not victim culture motivated research. It would be hard work, reaching out to the victims and running longitudinal observation. If there is such research, I'd like to read it.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Child sexual abuse is strongly linked to a range of mental illness later on in life. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(19)30286-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... > Someone should do actual not politically correct and not victim culture motivated research. Someone should take a few minutes to read the reams of research that has been written about this rather than parotting NAMBLA discussion points.
      - eesmith 7y ago
        I'll add that "harm" doesn't make a difference - lack of consent is what's at issue. If someone has sex with a woman in a coma, there's no harm to the woman. There's no need for physical force. It's still sexual assault. Unconscious people, children, and sex slaves are not able to give meaningful consent. Stallman doesn't appear to understand the role of consent in these laws.
- shagie 7y ago
  https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... has a redacted email thread.
  - interfixus 7y ago
    For those who might prefer unredacted, here's what Stallman is reported to have said: "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing.Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates."
    - mjg59 7y ago
      Of course, the definition of "sexual assault" presumes no such thing.
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        The law definition in the United States, you mean. In Poland, it requires use of force or coercion on part of the person doing the sexual act. Without it, say drugging and then letting someone else do it, it's "just" assault. (The other person is committing sexual assault.) What Epstein did is called pimping and also punishable by law. Potentially also abduction or assault. Forcing a minor to commence a sexual act is a separate category of pimping (pimping a minor) that's yet more harshly punished. Sex with minor is also punishable by law separately. (With some exceptions and discretion by the judge.) Now there is a strong association with sexual assault, though circumstances can leave it as just sex with minor. Depends on prosecutor and judge. So it is likely Epstein would be convicted of multiple crimes and potentially recidivism (repeat offense) and organized crime, while Minsky would be convicted for sex with minor, not any kind of assault. Note that repeat offense means Epstein would not be offered bail nor allowed a reduced sentence.
- mikeash 7y ago
  Maybe read the link about which we are all talking.
  - interfixus 7y ago
    A less condescending tone would be appreciated. I read that article - and formed certain opinions about it - long before it was posted to HN.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      The whole thing is about RMS defending child rape on the basis that legal age limits are stupid and that it’s not rape if the child is willing. If you managed to miss all that then maybe try again.
      - interfixus 7y ago
        If you could kindly point me to the passage where Stallman talks about rape, I would be much obliged.
        mikeash 7y ago
        “...the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.” The context is an underage sex slave. Having sex with her is rape by definition in two different ways.