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> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up its criteria for existing as a virtuous person.

krapp 7y ago
>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person. What more proportionate response would you suggest? So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true victim, and we should sympathize with him, respect him and let him be.
- rubbingalcohol 7y ago
  How about call him an asshole, let him learn from his mistake (or not) and move on?
  - krapp 7y ago
    So basically, just put up with it and do nothing consequential? RMS isn't some random asshole who made a slightly off-color remark, he's a leader whose influence and cult of personality have shaped the culture around F/OSS development and programming for decades, who appears to have troubling issues around the concept of sex and consent with minors. He's also a man known for his intransigence, so the chances of him "learning his lesson" seem low. To say that he doesn't deserve to be inconvenienced by the social consequences of opinions that would ostracize anyone else isn't proportionate, it's elitist.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      “Gosh, why are there so few women in tech? It’s such a mystery. I guess the female brain just isn’t as suited for programming. There is definitely nothing we can or should do to change the situation.” I am so disgusted with this community right now.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
mjg59 7y ago
The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.
- rubbingalcohol 7y ago
  People who run away from something when their feelings get hurt are no great loss to whatever "movement" they're too weak to contribute to. Free Software has much bigger problems than these losers.
  - mjg59 7y ago
    I personally know high quality developers who refuse to work on free software projects because of Stallman. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of principle.
    - prepend 7y ago
      I personally know high quality developers who only work on free software projects because of Stallman. I’m not sure how valuable these baseless anecdotes are to the conversation and is one of the reasons why I try to argue on principles. I’m optimistic that you brought up principles as well as I think it’s important to judge developers based on the quality of their code rather than how popular they are.
      - mjg59 7y ago
        The popularity of a developer is certainly not a reason to judge them in itself. But the reasons for that developer's popularity are. Is that developer popular because they provide empathetic feedback to other developers? Is that developer popular because they help other project members think about the goals of the project in useful ways? Is that developer popular because they make it easier for others to involve themselves in the project? If so, that developer should be regarded highly even if their code isn't great.
Ensorceled 7y ago
You say, "No defense for RMS' statement" and yet here you are. RMS is using his position as a free software spokesman and leader to minimize sex trafficking and defend rapists and you are talking about "cancel culture". This is a horrific response to this article.
smitty1e 7y ago
Something like what Python has done in transitioning off of a BDFL is well worth discussing. Even though I'm not religiously bound to the GPL, it would be idiotic to refuse props to RMS for having profoundly affected society in a positive way through the FSF. Are we confident that the FSF doesn't pass on with RMS? How?
shadowgovt 7y ago
It is entirely possible that the people who are good at building technologies aren't great at building cultures or communities, or at finding the most human-beneficial uses of those technologies. Different skillsets. Wernher von Braun never went to the moon.

krapp 7y ago

>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person. What more proportionate response would you suggest? So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true victim, and we should sympathize with him, respect him and let him be.

rubbingalcohol 7y ago
How about call him an asshole, let him learn from his mistake (or not) and move on?
- krapp 7y ago
  So basically, just put up with it and do nothing consequential? RMS isn't some random asshole who made a slightly off-color remark, he's a leader whose influence and cult of personality have shaped the culture around F/OSS development and programming for decades, who appears to have troubling issues around the concept of sex and consent with minors. He's also a man known for his intransigence, so the chances of him "learning his lesson" seem low. To say that he doesn't deserve to be inconvenienced by the social consequences of opinions that would ostracize anyone else isn't proportionate, it's elitist.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    “Gosh, why are there so few women in tech? It’s such a mystery. I guess the female brain just isn’t as suited for programming. There is definitely nothing we can or should do to change the situation.” I am so disgusted with this community right now.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

mjg59 7y ago

The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.

rubbingalcohol 7y ago
People who run away from something when their feelings get hurt are no great loss to whatever "movement" they're too weak to contribute to. Free Software has much bigger problems than these losers.
- mjg59 7y ago
  I personally know high quality developers who refuse to work on free software projects because of Stallman. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of principle.
  - prepend 7y ago
    I personally know high quality developers who only work on free software projects because of Stallman. I’m not sure how valuable these baseless anecdotes are to the conversation and is one of the reasons why I try to argue on principles. I’m optimistic that you brought up principles as well as I think it’s important to judge developers based on the quality of their code rather than how popular they are.
    - mjg59 7y ago
      The popularity of a developer is certainly not a reason to judge them in itself. But the reasons for that developer's popularity are. Is that developer popular because they provide empathetic feedback to other developers? Is that developer popular because they help other project members think about the goals of the project in useful ways? Is that developer popular because they make it easier for others to involve themselves in the project? If so, that developer should be regarded highly even if their code isn't great.

Ensorceled 7y ago

You say, "No defense for RMS' statement" and yet here you are. RMS is using his position as a free software spokesman and leader to minimize sex trafficking and defend rapists and you are talking about "cancel culture". This is a horrific response to this article.

smitty1e 7y ago

Something like what Python has done in transitioning off of a BDFL is well worth discussing. Even though I'm not religiously bound to the GPL, it would be idiotic to refuse props to RMS for having profoundly affected society in a positive way through the FSF. Are we confident that the FSF doesn't pass on with RMS? How?

shadowgovt 7y ago

It is entirely possible that the people who are good at building technologies aren't great at building cultures or communities, or at finding the most human-beneficial uses of those technologies. Different skillsets. Wernher von Braun never went to the moon.