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Show HN: WhatFreeWords: Open-Source Geocoding for What3Words

113 points by whatfreewords 7y ago

jon-wood 7y ago
Sadly this is likely to get shut down by What3Words, who are very protective of their algorithm.
- Reventlov 7y ago
  The authors know that: https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html
  - imglorp 7y ago
    A subpoena will figure out who they are.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      And then extradition orders in every country they're in?
      - otterley 7y ago
        You don't have to extradite the authors if they live in countries in which patent protection is strong and the legal systems are functional enough to impose due process upon them and enforce injunctions/damages. Extradition is typically a last resort, typically for criminal proceedings. Moreover, an injunction is much more likely to be sought than damages, in which case extradition is unnecessary - all the patentees have to do is get an order from a judge forcing the hosts to take their code and site down.
        greglindahl 7y ago
        Many countries don't recognize software patents, and the ones that do have some strict rules about what patents are valid. So, are you sure that this is a slam dunk? You don't seem to have any concept that it might be ruled invalid.
        otterley 7y ago
        It’s a lot easier to accomplish this under the conditions I outlined above. That’s all I’m saying. People have gotten away with worse.
        greglindahl 7y ago
        Many countries have strong patent protections and no software patents. If you wanted to say "have software patents" instead of "strong patent protections", it would make a bit more sense.
    - mLuby 7y ago
      How's that? There are ways to post content anonymously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20220048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20220048
- coding123 7y ago
  Why "sadly"? They know it is infringement. When you own a patent or trademark you HAVE to go after the infringers, otherwise you stop owning the patent.
  - CrazyStat 7y ago
    This is not true in the US. There is a concept of abandonment for trademarks, but it's not that simple, and the concept does not apply to patents. There is a totally different thing called patent abandonment but it has nothing to do with going after infringers. There is a statute of limitations on patent damages but you don't lose your patent for failing to enforce. I'm not familiar with UK or European patent law but I expect it's similar in this regard.
- jeroenhd 7y ago
  Perhaps if they reside in, operate from or actively serve the US. In other parts of the world, software patents are unenforceable (as only implementations of ideas can be patented, not the ideas themselves). Based on their wordlist, they do seem to use American English (so they are probably not located in the UK) but the authors can still operate this project from anywhere in the world. Mapping some bits of data to a short set of words or pictures isn't even new, neither is the hashing step to ensure that similar coordinates don't use the same name. Validating (session) keys by hashing the key to generate a fingerprint and turning that into words (or these days, emoji) was invented before W3W was conceived. The patent itself is quite flimsy, considering it's just applying some formulas to do something that was already being done on basically any data.
philshem 7y ago
Here's a list of other alternatives to w3w https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/What3words#Alternatives https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/What3words#Alternatives
mongol 7y ago
I have only ever heard of What3words in internet tech forums etc. Is it a well known company for the general public in some countries?
- hobofan 7y ago
  It seems that they have a pretty good PR department and had articles about them in a lot of major newspapers around the world. If had quite a few non-techy people ask me about W3W that I wouldn't have assumed would know about them.
- fenwick67 7y ago
  I wonder this too. Honestly I have never seen it in use. In most countries, if something is on a street, it has a street address, which is more convenient than W3W.
  - jakear 7y ago
    I’m not sure how accurate “in most countries, if something is on a street, it has a street address” is. Even in USA, if my car breaks down while I’m going cross-country, I’d be nice to have a fast way to share location.
    - schoenobates 7y ago
      Would this not be possible though by sharing your lon/lat though? Plus easier to navigate to using gmaps or the like. On the flip side, I have read stories of w3w success in giving an address to people where a normal street address is not possible, e.g. favelas https://www.reuters.com/article/us-innovation-what-3-words/what3words-keeps-olympics-visitors-on-track-in-rio-idUSKCN10M1Q6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-innovation-what-3-words/w...
      - jakear 7y ago
        lat, long: “I have fallen and broken my leg. I am under a rock at *thirty three point five nine six one three degrees north and one hundred and seventeen point seven nine six nine two degrees west. That’s thirty three point five nine six one three degrees north and one hundred and seventeen point seven nine six nine two degrees west.” Then wait for them to read it back to you. Then repeat that as many times as there are different people involved in the rescue. Versus 3 word: “I have fallen and broken my leg. I am under a rock at 3 word code: off-road — starfish — postmark.” Then wait for them to read it back to you. Then repeat that as many times as there are different people involved in the rescue. Where I am rn, btw. (Though thankfully not my situation) And the number of decimal places more or less corresponds with the size of the 3 code and an appropriate level of precision, given the environment.
rathel 7y ago
I find the fact Steve Coast (the founder of OpenStreetMap) has worked for what3words pretty grotesque. https://www.spatialsource.com.au/latest-news/founder-of-openstreetmap-joins-what3words https://www.spatialsource.com.au/latest-news/founder-of-open... It's a shame that he didn't have enough charisma and vision to become OSM's BDFL a la Python's Guido von Rossum. Having a single person could help transcend the current "continue status quo" and "lean OSM Foundation that does absolute minimum" paradigm which partially stem from from the fact that every change would meet with some opposition (which is hard to override if there's no clearly dominating power).
noname120 7y ago
What3words is patented[1]. If you compare the explanation of their free implementation[2] with the claims section of the patent, it seems very possible that it breaches the patent. In particular, the equations that are described in claim number 7 of the patent are exactly the same as in their explanations. I'm not a lawyer so I can't talk about whether it can be enforced in practice. But still, the fact that this open-source implementation doesn't reference the patent anywhere suggests that they didn't consider the legal implications properly. [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014170646A1/fr?oq=WO%2f2014%2f170646+ https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014170646A1/fr?oq=WO%2f... [2] https://whatfreewords.org/about.html https://whatfreewords.org/about.html
- rahimnathwani 7y ago
  IANAL, and may be wrong about how US patent law works but AIUI: - A patent isn't infringed unless an independent claim is infringed - Claim #7 (the one with the equations) is a dependent claim (dependent on claim #1, which is independent) The key questions seem to be: - whether claim #1 is being infringed, and - whether the patent is valid
  - noname120 7y ago
    This is exactly correct. The point about the formulas was meant as an illustrative example about the fact that the patent might well apply rather than an argumentative one.
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      It's a good choice of example... of why it might be invalid due to Alice.
- freeone3000 7y ago
  It's open source. Good luck enforcing patent claims against something that can be copied endlessly for free. Ask how that turned out against ffmpeg.
toss1 7y ago
What3Words is a horrible idea. It's primary use is as a rent extraction device for its owners, if they can gain sufficient market share. It is utterly useless without their app, uses a non-universal language (English vs math) and provides zero information about geography. The 3-word identification strings provide not the slightest clue whether two identified points are corners of the same building or literally on opposite sides of the planet (vs LatLong making it obvious that e.g., 42.36N 71.31W is relatively near 41.92N 71.48W). It provides zero value to anyone trying to actually navigate, without using their app, and if you are going to navigate with an app, why not use any implementation of OpenStreetMap, or even the nearly ubiquitous Google or Apple maps? Hell, we're even better off with old paper postal maps than this scheme. A slight about of temporary convenience for innumerate people is no good reason to implement a rent-extractive proprietary system.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  They publish word lists for other languages. https://support.what3words.com/en/articles/2212864-how-many-languages-is-what3words-available-in https://support.what3words.com/en/articles/2212864-how-many-... I don't think it is a particularly good idea, but insisting people use English isn't something they are doing.
  - toss1 7y ago
    Great -- so now we also have a translation issue! </sarc> Nice that they're making a nod to avoiding language hegemony However, the numerals used in LatLong navigation are about as universal as a language gets, requiring no translation in written communications, and are among the first words learned in second languages. In contrast, the three random words can fall subject to all kinds of translation issues whenever crossing a language barrier. Makes me realize that we'd need not only their app, but also their official translation table; makes it seem even more like a fractally bad idea.
  - realusername 7y ago
    I commented last time on W3W coverage for French but it's beyond useless, they use very obscure words 90+% of native speakers have never heard of and you would need a dictionary even for well known addresses in Paris.
acqq 7y ago
Independently of the fact that I'm thoroughly against the use of proprietary algorithm for encoding, there's an interesting problem of the implementation of a range of similar problems to which somebody here maybe knows a nice effective solution: (from their FAQ): "The JavaScript library is about 2.4 megabytes. Almost all of this data is encoding data about how regions of the Earth are mapped to n values. There are over 300,000 regions. The raw data for the regions is 1.8 megabytes, and getting the data encoded in a JavaScript file raises this to 2.4 megabytes even after compression. The Go library is about 2.6 megabytes of source code, for similar reasons, and produces executables of at least about 5.7 megabytes. If you can shrink any of this data or make any other improvements, then please contact us and we will be pleased to use your improvements."
- londons_explore 7y ago
  For the go executable to be so much larger than the source code, when he majority of that is data, there must be something going wrong...
m-chrzan 7y ago
The javascript implementation defines deg2rad as deg * Math.PI / 360 It's been a while since high school math, but shouldn't that be divided by 180? Looks like the numbers in the docs are based on this incorrect conversion.
- whatfreewords 7y ago
  You're right, thank you. This is a mistake. This will be corrected as quickly as possible. ETA: This has been corrected. Thank you.
ujLion 7y ago
Hello, I am Ujjwal - the inventor of WCode. Please checkout this page: https://wcodes.org/patents https://wcodes.org/patents and https://wcodes.org/location https://wcodes.org/location And my webapp: https://location.wcodes.org https://location.wcodes.org
eruci 7y ago
It's been shut down already.

113 points by whatfreewords 7y ago

jon-wood 7y ago

Sadly this is likely to get shut down by What3Words, who are very protective of their algorithm.

Reventlov 7y ago
The authors know that: https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html
- imglorp 7y ago
  A subpoena will figure out who they are.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    And then extradition orders in every country they're in?
    - otterley 7y ago
      You don't have to extradite the authors if they live in countries in which patent protection is strong and the legal systems are functional enough to impose due process upon them and enforce injunctions/damages. Extradition is typically a last resort, typically for criminal proceedings. Moreover, an injunction is much more likely to be sought than damages, in which case extradition is unnecessary - all the patentees have to do is get an order from a judge forcing the hosts to take their code and site down.
      - greglindahl 7y ago
        Many countries don't recognize software patents, and the ones that do have some strict rules about what patents are valid. So, are you sure that this is a slam dunk? You don't seem to have any concept that it might be ruled invalid.
        otterley 7y ago
        It’s a lot easier to accomplish this under the conditions I outlined above. That’s all I’m saying. People have gotten away with worse.
        greglindahl 7y ago
        Many countries have strong patent protections and no software patents. If you wanted to say "have software patents" instead of "strong patent protections", it would make a bit more sense.
  - mLuby 7y ago
    How's that? There are ways to post content anonymously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20220048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20220048
coding123 7y ago
Why "sadly"? They know it is infringement. When you own a patent or trademark you HAVE to go after the infringers, otherwise you stop owning the patent.
- CrazyStat 7y ago
  This is not true in the US. There is a concept of abandonment for trademarks, but it's not that simple, and the concept does not apply to patents. There is a totally different thing called patent abandonment but it has nothing to do with going after infringers. There is a statute of limitations on patent damages but you don't lose your patent for failing to enforce. I'm not familiar with UK or European patent law but I expect it's similar in this regard.
jeroenhd 7y ago
Perhaps if they reside in, operate from or actively serve the US. In other parts of the world, software patents are unenforceable (as only implementations of ideas can be patented, not the ideas themselves). Based on their wordlist, they do seem to use American English (so they are probably not located in the UK) but the authors can still operate this project from anywhere in the world. Mapping some bits of data to a short set of words or pictures isn't even new, neither is the hashing step to ensure that similar coordinates don't use the same name. Validating (session) keys by hashing the key to generate a fingerprint and turning that into words (or these days, emoji) was invented before W3W was conceived. The patent itself is quite flimsy, considering it's just applying some formulas to do something that was already being done on basically any data.

philshem 7y ago

Here's a list of other alternatives to w3w https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/What3words#Alternatives https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/What3words#Alternatives

mongol 7y ago

I have only ever heard of What3words in internet tech forums etc. Is it a well known company for the general public in some countries?

hobofan 7y ago
It seems that they have a pretty good PR department and had articles about them in a lot of major newspapers around the world. If had quite a few non-techy people ask me about W3W that I wouldn't have assumed would know about them.
fenwick67 7y ago
I wonder this too. Honestly I have never seen it in use. In most countries, if something is on a street, it has a street address, which is more convenient than W3W.
- jakear 7y ago
  I’m not sure how accurate “in most countries, if something is on a street, it has a street address” is. Even in USA, if my car breaks down while I’m going cross-country, I’d be nice to have a fast way to share location.
  - schoenobates 7y ago
    Would this not be possible though by sharing your lon/lat though? Plus easier to navigate to using gmaps or the like. On the flip side, I have read stories of w3w success in giving an address to people where a normal street address is not possible, e.g. favelas https://www.reuters.com/article/us-innovation-what-3-words/what3words-keeps-olympics-visitors-on-track-in-rio-idUSKCN10M1Q6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-innovation-what-3-words/w...
    - jakear 7y ago
      lat, long: “I have fallen and broken my leg. I am under a rock at *thirty three point five nine six one three degrees north and one hundred and seventeen point seven nine six nine two degrees west. That’s thirty three point five nine six one three degrees north and one hundred and seventeen point seven nine six nine two degrees west.” Then wait for them to read it back to you. Then repeat that as many times as there are different people involved in the rescue. Versus 3 word: “I have fallen and broken my leg. I am under a rock at 3 word code: off-road — starfish — postmark.” Then wait for them to read it back to you. Then repeat that as many times as there are different people involved in the rescue. Where I am rn, btw. (Though thankfully not my situation) And the number of decimal places more or less corresponds with the size of the 3 code and an appropriate level of precision, given the environment.

rathel 7y ago

I find the fact Steve Coast (the founder of OpenStreetMap) has worked for what3words pretty grotesque. https://www.spatialsource.com.au/latest-news/founder-of-openstreetmap-joins-what3words https://www.spatialsource.com.au/latest-news/founder-of-open... It's a shame that he didn't have enough charisma and vision to become OSM's BDFL a la Python's Guido von Rossum. Having a single person could help transcend the current "continue status quo" and "lean OSM Foundation that does absolute minimum" paradigm which partially stem from from the fact that every change would meet with some opposition (which is hard to override if there's no clearly dominating power).

noname120 7y ago

What3words is patented[1]. If you compare the explanation of their free implementation[2] with the claims section of the patent, it seems very possible that it breaches the patent. In particular, the equations that are described in claim number 7 of the patent are exactly the same as in their explanations. I'm not a lawyer so I can't talk about whether it can be enforced in practice. But still, the fact that this open-source implementation doesn't reference the patent anywhere suggests that they didn't consider the legal implications properly. [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014170646A1/fr?oq=WO%2f2014%2f170646+ https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014170646A1/fr?oq=WO%2f... [2] https://whatfreewords.org/about.html https://whatfreewords.org/about.html

rahimnathwani 7y ago
IANAL, and may be wrong about how US patent law works but AIUI: - A patent isn't infringed unless an independent claim is infringed - Claim #7 (the one with the equations) is a dependent claim (dependent on claim #1, which is independent) The key questions seem to be: - whether claim #1 is being infringed, and - whether the patent is valid
- noname120 7y ago
  This is exactly correct. The point about the formulas was meant as an illustrative example about the fact that the patent might well apply rather than an argumentative one.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    It's a good choice of example... of why it might be invalid due to Alice.
freeone3000 7y ago
It's open source. Good luck enforcing patent claims against something that can be copied endlessly for free. Ask how that turned out against ffmpeg.

toss1 7y ago

What3Words is a horrible idea. It's primary use is as a rent extraction device for its owners, if they can gain sufficient market share. It is utterly useless without their app, uses a non-universal language (English vs math) and provides zero information about geography. The 3-word identification strings provide not the slightest clue whether two identified points are corners of the same building or literally on opposite sides of the planet (vs LatLong making it obvious that e.g., 42.36N 71.31W is relatively near 41.92N 71.48W). It provides zero value to anyone trying to actually navigate, without using their app, and if you are going to navigate with an app, why not use any implementation of OpenStreetMap, or even the nearly ubiquitous Google or Apple maps? Hell, we're even better off with old paper postal maps than this scheme. A slight about of temporary convenience for innumerate people is no good reason to implement a rent-extractive proprietary system.

maxerickson 7y ago
They publish word lists for other languages. https://support.what3words.com/en/articles/2212864-how-many-languages-is-what3words-available-in https://support.what3words.com/en/articles/2212864-how-many-... I don't think it is a particularly good idea, but insisting people use English isn't something they are doing.
- toss1 7y ago
  Great -- so now we also have a translation issue! </sarc> Nice that they're making a nod to avoiding language hegemony However, the numerals used in LatLong navigation are about as universal as a language gets, requiring no translation in written communications, and are among the first words learned in second languages. In contrast, the three random words can fall subject to all kinds of translation issues whenever crossing a language barrier. Makes me realize that we'd need not only their app, but also their official translation table; makes it seem even more like a fractally bad idea.
- realusername 7y ago
  I commented last time on W3W coverage for French but it's beyond useless, they use very obscure words 90+% of native speakers have never heard of and you would need a dictionary even for well known addresses in Paris.

acqq 7y ago

Independently of the fact that I'm thoroughly against the use of proprietary algorithm for encoding, there's an interesting problem of the implementation of a range of similar problems to which somebody here maybe knows a nice effective solution: (from their FAQ): "The JavaScript library is about 2.4 megabytes. Almost all of this data is encoding data about how regions of the Earth are mapped to n values. There are over 300,000 regions. The raw data for the regions is 1.8 megabytes, and getting the data encoded in a JavaScript file raises this to 2.4 megabytes even after compression. The Go library is about 2.6 megabytes of source code, for similar reasons, and produces executables of at least about 5.7 megabytes. If you can shrink any of this data or make any other improvements, then please contact us and we will be pleased to use your improvements."

londons_explore 7y ago
For the go executable to be so much larger than the source code, when he majority of that is data, there must be something going wrong...

m-chrzan 7y ago

The javascript implementation defines deg2rad as deg * Math.PI / 360 It's been a while since high school math, but shouldn't that be divided by 180? Looks like the numbers in the docs are based on this incorrect conversion.

whatfreewords 7y ago
You're right, thank you. This is a mistake. This will be corrected as quickly as possible. ETA: This has been corrected. Thank you.

ujLion 7y ago

Hello, I am Ujjwal - the inventor of WCode. Please checkout this page: https://wcodes.org/patents https://wcodes.org/patents and https://wcodes.org/location https://wcodes.org/location And my webapp: https://location.wcodes.org https://location.wcodes.org

eruci 7y ago

It's been shut down already.