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Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I can't understand some of you guys. You pay 2k for a laptop which has a shitty keyboard and then you look for excu

Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I can't understand some of you guys. You pay 2k for a laptop which has a shitty keyboard and then you look for excuses to justify your decision. Sure, a lot of what you mention about Windows machines is true. But they're also preventable with work arounds. What kind of a work-around is there for the problem with MacPros keyboards? I have a Toshiba laptop (Tecra Z40). Aside from the crap they install to make their tailor-made hardware to work everything else is stellar. The machine works for the last two years problem free, and it will probably keep working for another five. Don't make it sound like every non Apple laptop is crap because it isn't.

acqq 7y ago
> Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I use Linux on the notebooks since around 2003. The problems are far from being solved, from my experience: - There was constantly some piece of hardware that wasn't supported. - There were constantly pieces of operating system and user space that were simply broken until a lot of manual work is applied. - The brokenness increases with every update. At the start I didn't use LTS (I don't even remember if the LTS versions even existed for the distro I've used) -- it was a major pain. Six months go by, new upgrade, everything's broken. Search the internet, ask: "oh you upgrade an existing installation? It's not tested, you should installed blank and copied your data, we do that" -- oh thanks. - The brokenness of power saving is amazingly persistent. Linux notebooks typically worked acceptable only when plugged in. - Even worse, the brokenness of the possibility of playing the stutter free videos: https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ I have still that problem (it was not only "flash" that was and is the problem!) and discovered that the "lighter" compositors that are advertised as supposedly needing less resources made even worse results. I still have computers that in 2019 with the latest Linuxes can't play videos normally, whereas on the same computer videos in Windows play perfectly. In short, if you need a computer only for a very reduced set of tasks and are ready to spend the time "fixing" the remaining issues, Linux can work for you. But don't expect "problems solved." On another side using Windows brings its own crazy pains: if you keep even the Windows provided "antivirus" solution on, even file copying can be orders of magnitude slower than what the machine would be able to do. Plus the crapware. And the exposure to many more viruses trojans etc. Or even the ads built in in the OS. So what's then left? Apple. Also not perfect, of course, but some problems are actually "solved" from the start. But using Apple computers brings its own issues and, of course, prices. It's just the question which kinds of problems you want to be exposed to. I personally can't stand not being able to reasonably easy replace a hard disk in my notebook. I don't even know what I can buy the next time.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  This. When I buy a laptop I want to pay a big pile of money to ensure real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use. It’s the most important feature of a laptop so I don’t mind that being a significant chunk of the price for only that. When I buy a dell or Lenovo I expect crapware but I expect to be able to remove it by installing a clean OS on it.
  - acqq 7y ago
    > real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use > When I buy a dell or Lenovo It's still nothing guaranteed with Linux distros, it's just that "mostly works" (for various definitions of "works") state is maintained: recently there was a quite big kernel bug delivered as a trivial update, which affected LTS version of Ubuntu, including Dells and many other brands, as soon as there was a second monitor attached to the machine. The recent Dell docks more didn't than did work for a while, it took many firmware updates to make them "mostly" working. But it still doesn't behave how it should. Etc.
    - alkonaut 7y ago
      Yes, I don't use desktop linux. When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. If I ever did buy a deskop linux machine I'd buy one of the preinstalled ones to ensure I wouldn't have to fight the tiny issues with multi-screen DPI, various sleep states etc. Those things are hard enough for manufacturers to get right in windows and Mac OS it seems.
      - acqq 7y ago
        > When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. As far as I see, even with Dell, the modern hardware is too commonly untested and poorly developed or integrated with the OS, even with Windows: in my company I don't know anybody who uses built-in trackpads, as it's a common knowledge that they "don't work" but everybody carries the mouse around. I've tried to use the trackpad only to see it broken between different Windows versions (so very like Linux). The same story with the docks -- they seem to worked badly even on Windows. The Dell puts their brand on the final product, but they just integrate whatever they can get at the moment. And even if you integrate Intel devices, they can remain in the software support limbo (happened to me with the Intel WiFi cards which remained unsupported and not working on Windows 10, even if Microsoft forced the upgrade as "everything works"). It's a sad state of the hardware - software integration. And knowing the Apple's problem with the keyboards, it seems that the only portable devices currently fully working "as they should" are the phones and tablets.
areoform 7y ago
I feel this comment is unnecessarily combative. Setting aside security. I have owned laptops from every major brand. IBM ThinkPads, Toshibas, Lenevos, Dells, Macs and ASUS. So far, other than ASUS, I've run into more hardware issues with these laptops with fewer repair options available. They've also had bad battery lives compared to the Macs at the time. I've bought laptops and flashed Linux on them. I've used Ubuntu since Hardy Heron. But none of the laptops worked as seamlessly and as well as my Macs. The touchpad wouldn't work. The WiFi would fail. Sometimes updates broke the machine if they worked at all. Printers weren't plug and play. A few times the system crashed because of a configuration error that was unintentional. All in all, it was a poor experience. The difference in the experience is summed up by what happens when you open the box. A new Linux laptop would require an install, then hunting down the files, copying it over, doing updates, changing settings, changing the configuration etc etc. A new Mac is simple. I bring it home. Turn it on. It goes on my WiFi, finds my Time Machine and does the rest. I have perfect continuity from my old machine to the new. I have settings and programs here from 3 machines ago. I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. Moreover, from a security perspective, I trust a company like Toshiba less. Mostly because the Toshiba comes with a ton of bloatware installed; https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLFaPR9AOW1Y64Cw&q=toshiba+bios+bloatware&oq=toshiba+bios+bloatware&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l2.420558.423118..423290...1.3..1.816.4900.2-5j5j1j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j33i160.JgbvSY3DVC4&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5uvtkNDkAhWjKH0KHZaqA7cQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLF... and you never know what they might install. As of writing, my Mac just doesn't.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  >I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. This is why I’m willing to pay whatever Apple asks. As far as I can tell, they have done the most to earn my trust that they might not try to shove malware or ads on me. They have had a few missteps in the past, but all the other companies are so much worse. Plus their customer service has been leagues better than everyone else...which isn’t hard since no one else has any stores I can go and get my problem fixed at.
  - 7y ago
spodek 7y ago
Agreed. My past several computers have been used from Craig's List, $500 for roughly $2,000 machines. Installing Mint has been flawless. Everything just works (Lenovo Carbon X1).
Vrondi 7y ago
External keyboards? LOL!

acqq 7y ago

> Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I use Linux on the notebooks since around 2003. The problems are far from being solved, from my experience: - There was constantly some piece of hardware that wasn't supported. - There were constantly pieces of operating system and user space that were simply broken until a lot of manual work is applied. - The brokenness increases with every update. At the start I didn't use LTS (I don't even remember if the LTS versions even existed for the distro I've used) -- it was a major pain. Six months go by, new upgrade, everything's broken. Search the internet, ask: "oh you upgrade an existing installation? It's not tested, you should installed blank and copied your data, we do that" -- oh thanks. - The brokenness of power saving is amazingly persistent. Linux notebooks typically worked acceptable only when plugged in. - Even worse, the brokenness of the possibility of playing the stutter free videos: https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ I have still that problem (it was not only "flash" that was and is the problem!) and discovered that the "lighter" compositors that are advertised as supposedly needing less resources made even worse results. I still have computers that in 2019 with the latest Linuxes can't play videos normally, whereas on the same computer videos in Windows play perfectly. In short, if you need a computer only for a very reduced set of tasks and are ready to spend the time "fixing" the remaining issues, Linux can work for you. But don't expect "problems solved." On another side using Windows brings its own crazy pains: if you keep even the Windows provided "antivirus" solution on, even file copying can be orders of magnitude slower than what the machine would be able to do. Plus the crapware. And the exposure to many more viruses trojans etc. Or even the ads built in in the OS. So what's then left? Apple. Also not perfect, of course, but some problems are actually "solved" from the start. But using Apple computers brings its own issues and, of course, prices. It's just the question which kinds of problems you want to be exposed to. I personally can't stand not being able to reasonably easy replace a hard disk in my notebook. I don't even know what I can buy the next time.

alkonaut 7y ago
This. When I buy a laptop I want to pay a big pile of money to ensure real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use. It’s the most important feature of a laptop so I don’t mind that being a significant chunk of the price for only that. When I buy a dell or Lenovo I expect crapware but I expect to be able to remove it by installing a clean OS on it.
- acqq 7y ago
  > real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use > When I buy a dell or Lenovo It's still nothing guaranteed with Linux distros, it's just that "mostly works" (for various definitions of "works") state is maintained: recently there was a quite big kernel bug delivered as a trivial update, which affected LTS version of Ubuntu, including Dells and many other brands, as soon as there was a second monitor attached to the machine. The recent Dell docks more didn't than did work for a while, it took many firmware updates to make them "mostly" working. But it still doesn't behave how it should. Etc.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Yes, I don't use desktop linux. When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. If I ever did buy a deskop linux machine I'd buy one of the preinstalled ones to ensure I wouldn't have to fight the tiny issues with multi-screen DPI, various sleep states etc. Those things are hard enough for manufacturers to get right in windows and Mac OS it seems.
    - acqq 7y ago
      > When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. As far as I see, even with Dell, the modern hardware is too commonly untested and poorly developed or integrated with the OS, even with Windows: in my company I don't know anybody who uses built-in trackpads, as it's a common knowledge that they "don't work" but everybody carries the mouse around. I've tried to use the trackpad only to see it broken between different Windows versions (so very like Linux). The same story with the docks -- they seem to worked badly even on Windows. The Dell puts their brand on the final product, but they just integrate whatever they can get at the moment. And even if you integrate Intel devices, they can remain in the software support limbo (happened to me with the Intel WiFi cards which remained unsupported and not working on Windows 10, even if Microsoft forced the upgrade as "everything works"). It's a sad state of the hardware - software integration. And knowing the Apple's problem with the keyboards, it seems that the only portable devices currently fully working "as they should" are the phones and tablets.

areoform 7y ago

I feel this comment is unnecessarily combative. Setting aside security. I have owned laptops from every major brand. IBM ThinkPads, Toshibas, Lenevos, Dells, Macs and ASUS. So far, other than ASUS, I've run into more hardware issues with these laptops with fewer repair options available. They've also had bad battery lives compared to the Macs at the time. I've bought laptops and flashed Linux on them. I've used Ubuntu since Hardy Heron. But none of the laptops worked as seamlessly and as well as my Macs. The touchpad wouldn't work. The WiFi would fail. Sometimes updates broke the machine if they worked at all. Printers weren't plug and play. A few times the system crashed because of a configuration error that was unintentional. All in all, it was a poor experience. The difference in the experience is summed up by what happens when you open the box. A new Linux laptop would require an install, then hunting down the files, copying it over, doing updates, changing settings, changing the configuration etc etc. A new Mac is simple. I bring it home. Turn it on. It goes on my WiFi, finds my Time Machine and does the rest. I have perfect continuity from my old machine to the new. I have settings and programs here from 3 machines ago. I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. Moreover, from a security perspective, I trust a company like Toshiba less. Mostly because the Toshiba comes with a ton of bloatware installed; https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLFaPR9AOW1Y64Cw&q=toshiba+bios+bloatware&oq=toshiba+bios+bloatware&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l2.420558.423118..423290...1.3..1.816.4900.2-5j5j1j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j33i160.JgbvSY3DVC4&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5uvtkNDkAhWjKH0KHZaqA7cQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLF... and you never know what they might install. As of writing, my Mac just doesn't.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
>I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. This is why I’m willing to pay whatever Apple asks. As far as I can tell, they have done the most to earn my trust that they might not try to shove malware or ads on me. They have had a few missteps in the past, but all the other companies are so much worse. Plus their customer service has been leagues better than everyone else...which isn’t hard since no one else has any stores I can go and get my problem fixed at.
- 7y ago

spodek 7y ago

Agreed. My past several computers have been used from Craig's List, $500 for roughly $2,000 machines. Installing Mint has been flawless. Everything just works (Lenovo Carbon X1).

Vrondi 7y ago

External keyboards? LOL!