4 ms·

It's a pretty common thing among non-native speakers who have nonetheless interacted or lived in the English-speaking world for virtually all their lives. I kno

by alxlaz 7y ago

It's a pretty common thing among non-native speakers who have nonetheless interacted or lived in the English-speaking world for virtually all their lives. I know a bunch of people who are in the same situation (although, clearly, not as famous :) ). My slight Irish accent is an endless source of fun when I'm abroad -- I'm not a native speaker and wasn't born anywhere near Ireland, or anywhere near the English-speaking world for that matter. I haven't even lived in the English-speaking world. The longest time I've spent is an English-speaking country was two weeks, which I spent in Scotland during my honeymoon. When I tell people where I'm from, no one believes me. They're skeptical even after I show them my ID card. But I've been reading, writing and speaking English, during work and leisure hours, for God knows how many years now, so I can read, write and speak it pretty well. The accent was an accident -- I have an ear for this sort of stuff but I didn't really try to develop one, I just acquired it because I ran into The Dubliners and Christy Moore at a time when I was very interested in this type of music and for some reason I ended up borrowing some of the sound. Frankly, it's a little embarrassing at times -- for example, I do my best to hide it when I'm speaking to someone who is actually from Ireland, because I'm always afraid it might sound like I'm mocking them or trying to hard. But other than that, it's been one my biggest assets. I've spent some time in $bigcorp world, and I've met a lot of people who were smarter and more experienced than me but nonetheless didn't get as much credit or attention as I got, partly because their thick Eastern-European accents and improper use of English idioms made it hard for them to communicate and painted them in a stereotypical light.

damo_g 7y ago
Only tangentially related, but having spent the past 6 months (and no doubt the foreseeable future) working with a senior engineer with a thick accent and only a so-so grasp of English, if you can't express yourself clearly or understand native speakers without them having to make allowances, then I don't think you should get credit for being smart. At that point, it doesn't matter -- the whole relationship is based on communication, and in a field like software engineering where discussing and exploring ideas is so paramount, it's at best a nuisance and at worst detrimental to productivity and working relationships. This isn't me stereotyping, either -- there are plenty of other people in the teams I work in with thick accents but a better grasp that I find it much easier to work with and learn from, even though they might not have as wide a breadth of knowledge. I'm not saying it's easy to learn English to that level obviously, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.
- alxlaz 7y ago
  > if you can't express yourself clearly or understand native speakers without them having to make allowances, then I don't think you should get credit for being smart Why? Engineers have to "make allowances" for understanding what managers or people from other departments say all the time, even when it's said in perfectly-articulate, perfectly-accented English. I can't remember the last time I heard someone outside a technical department use "speed", "bandwidth" and "latency" correctly. And yet I've continued to write correct specifications and improve products -- even when that required entire meetings to get people on the same page, as opposed to a simple question to get me over the language barrier. Shall we stop giving credit for being smart to designers, marketing specialists and product managers, too? > This isn't me stereotyping, either Yes it is. Difficult communication is a major problem in our industry and it's an unfortunate reality even in teams where everyone is a native speaker of the same language. It's far less difficult for a designer or a product manager to learn correct usage of technical terms in their native language than it is for someone to learn a whole new language -- but you wouldn't tell a manager that the fact that they can't be bothered to learn what a few words mean is "at best a nuisance and at worst detrimental to productivity and working relationships", would you?
- lanstin 7y ago
  I think if you can’t establish communication with a smart coder despite poor spoken English skills you aren’t that smart. Not only is code itself a very succinct form of communication, the brevity of math applies to software communication as well. You just need a few concepts to convey very detailed specifications. That’s why we have idenpotency as a word. Exactly-once semantics. “Use a lambda”.

by alxlaz 7y ago

damo_g 7y ago

Only tangentially related, but having spent the past 6 months (and no doubt the foreseeable future) working with a senior engineer with a thick accent and only a so-so grasp of English, if you can't express yourself clearly or understand native speakers without them having to make allowances, then I don't think you should get credit for being smart. At that point, it doesn't matter -- the whole relationship is based on communication, and in a field like software engineering where discussing and exploring ideas is so paramount, it's at best a nuisance and at worst detrimental to productivity and working relationships. This isn't me stereotyping, either -- there are plenty of other people in the teams I work in with thick accents but a better grasp that I find it much easier to work with and learn from, even though they might not have as wide a breadth of knowledge. I'm not saying it's easy to learn English to that level obviously, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

alxlaz 7y ago
> if you can't express yourself clearly or understand native speakers without them having to make allowances, then I don't think you should get credit for being smart Why? Engineers have to "make allowances" for understanding what managers or people from other departments say all the time, even when it's said in perfectly-articulate, perfectly-accented English. I can't remember the last time I heard someone outside a technical department use "speed", "bandwidth" and "latency" correctly. And yet I've continued to write correct specifications and improve products -- even when that required entire meetings to get people on the same page, as opposed to a simple question to get me over the language barrier. Shall we stop giving credit for being smart to designers, marketing specialists and product managers, too? > This isn't me stereotyping, either Yes it is. Difficult communication is a major problem in our industry and it's an unfortunate reality even in teams where everyone is a native speaker of the same language. It's far less difficult for a designer or a product manager to learn correct usage of technical terms in their native language than it is for someone to learn a whole new language -- but you wouldn't tell a manager that the fact that they can't be bothered to learn what a few words mean is "at best a nuisance and at worst detrimental to productivity and working relationships", would you?
lanstin 7y ago
I think if you can’t establish communication with a smart coder despite poor spoken English skills you aren’t that smart. Not only is code itself a very succinct form of communication, the brevity of math applies to software communication as well. You just need a few concepts to convey very detailed specifications. That’s why we have idenpotency as a word. Exactly-once semantics. “Use a lambda”.