10 ms·

Some of my highest rated comments were for Apple's recent failures. Their laptops shipped with an unworkable keyboard. New product lines were confusing. The exi

Some of my highest rated comments were for Apple's recent failures. Their laptops shipped with an unworkable keyboard. New product lines were confusing. The existence of the MacBook alongside the MacBook Air defied logic. Their "pro" machines were no longer pro. The list went on. Apple has changed some of that, but even if they don't, my next laptop will still be a Mac. Because Apple doesn't install shit on my machine. Apple fixes security holes. Apple doesn't cheat me on my privacy when I buy a machine. Apple might suck donkey balls but everyone else sucks even more. Pardon my French.

elorant 7y ago
Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I can't understand some of you guys. You pay 2k for a laptop which has a shitty keyboard and then you look for excuses to justify your decision. Sure, a lot of what you mention about Windows machines is true. But they're also preventable with work arounds. What kind of a work-around is there for the problem with MacPros keyboards? I have a Toshiba laptop (Tecra Z40). Aside from the crap they install to make their tailor-made hardware to work everything else is stellar. The machine works for the last two years problem free, and it will probably keep working for another five. Don't make it sound like every non Apple laptop is crap because it isn't.
- acqq 7y ago
  > Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I use Linux on the notebooks since around 2003. The problems are far from being solved, from my experience: - There was constantly some piece of hardware that wasn't supported. - There were constantly pieces of operating system and user space that were simply broken until a lot of manual work is applied. - The brokenness increases with every update. At the start I didn't use LTS (I don't even remember if the LTS versions even existed for the distro I've used) -- it was a major pain. Six months go by, new upgrade, everything's broken. Search the internet, ask: "oh you upgrade an existing installation? It's not tested, you should installed blank and copied your data, we do that" -- oh thanks. - The brokenness of power saving is amazingly persistent. Linux notebooks typically worked acceptable only when plugged in. - Even worse, the brokenness of the possibility of playing the stutter free videos: https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ I have still that problem (it was not only "flash" that was and is the problem!) and discovered that the "lighter" compositors that are advertised as supposedly needing less resources made even worse results. I still have computers that in 2019 with the latest Linuxes can't play videos normally, whereas on the same computer videos in Windows play perfectly. In short, if you need a computer only for a very reduced set of tasks and are ready to spend the time "fixing" the remaining issues, Linux can work for you. But don't expect "problems solved." On another side using Windows brings its own crazy pains: if you keep even the Windows provided "antivirus" solution on, even file copying can be orders of magnitude slower than what the machine would be able to do. Plus the crapware. And the exposure to many more viruses trojans etc. Or even the ads built in in the OS. So what's then left? Apple. Also not perfect, of course, but some problems are actually "solved" from the start. But using Apple computers brings its own issues and, of course, prices. It's just the question which kinds of problems you want to be exposed to. I personally can't stand not being able to reasonably easy replace a hard disk in my notebook. I don't even know what I can buy the next time.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    This. When I buy a laptop I want to pay a big pile of money to ensure real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use. It’s the most important feature of a laptop so I don’t mind that being a significant chunk of the price for only that. When I buy a dell or Lenovo I expect crapware but I expect to be able to remove it by installing a clean OS on it.
    - acqq 7y ago
      > real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use > When I buy a dell or Lenovo It's still nothing guaranteed with Linux distros, it's just that "mostly works" (for various definitions of "works") state is maintained: recently there was a quite big kernel bug delivered as a trivial update, which affected LTS version of Ubuntu, including Dells and many other brands, as soon as there was a second monitor attached to the machine. The recent Dell docks more didn't than did work for a while, it took many firmware updates to make them "mostly" working. But it still doesn't behave how it should. Etc.
      - alkonaut 7y ago
        Yes, I don't use desktop linux. When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. If I ever did buy a deskop linux machine I'd buy one of the preinstalled ones to ensure I wouldn't have to fight the tiny issues with multi-screen DPI, various sleep states etc. Those things are hard enough for manufacturers to get right in windows and Mac OS it seems.
        acqq 7y ago
        > When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. As far as I see, even with Dell, the modern hardware is too commonly untested and poorly developed or integrated with the OS, even with Windows: in my company I don't know anybody who uses built-in trackpads, as it's a common knowledge that they "don't work" but everybody carries the mouse around. I've tried to use the trackpad only to see it broken between different Windows versions (so very like Linux). The same story with the docks -- they seem to worked badly even on Windows. The Dell puts their brand on the final product, but they just integrate whatever they can get at the moment. And even if you integrate Intel devices, they can remain in the software support limbo (happened to me with the Intel WiFi cards which remained unsupported and not working on Windows 10, even if Microsoft forced the upgrade as "everything works"). It's a sad state of the hardware - software integration. And knowing the Apple's problem with the keyboards, it seems that the only portable devices currently fully working "as they should" are the phones and tablets.
- areoform 7y ago
  I feel this comment is unnecessarily combative. Setting aside security. I have owned laptops from every major brand. IBM ThinkPads, Toshibas, Lenevos, Dells, Macs and ASUS. So far, other than ASUS, I've run into more hardware issues with these laptops with fewer repair options available. They've also had bad battery lives compared to the Macs at the time. I've bought laptops and flashed Linux on them. I've used Ubuntu since Hardy Heron. But none of the laptops worked as seamlessly and as well as my Macs. The touchpad wouldn't work. The WiFi would fail. Sometimes updates broke the machine if they worked at all. Printers weren't plug and play. A few times the system crashed because of a configuration error that was unintentional. All in all, it was a poor experience. The difference in the experience is summed up by what happens when you open the box. A new Linux laptop would require an install, then hunting down the files, copying it over, doing updates, changing settings, changing the configuration etc etc. A new Mac is simple. I bring it home. Turn it on. It goes on my WiFi, finds my Time Machine and does the rest. I have perfect continuity from my old machine to the new. I have settings and programs here from 3 machines ago. I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. Moreover, from a security perspective, I trust a company like Toshiba less. Mostly because the Toshiba comes with a ton of bloatware installed; https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLFaPR9AOW1Y64Cw&q=toshiba+bios+bloatware&oq=toshiba+bios+bloatware&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l2.420558.423118..423290...1.3..1.816.4900.2-5j5j1j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j33i160.JgbvSY3DVC4&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5uvtkNDkAhWjKH0KHZaqA7cQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLF... and you never know what they might install. As of writing, my Mac just doesn't.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    >I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. This is why I’m willing to pay whatever Apple asks. As far as I can tell, they have done the most to earn my trust that they might not try to shove malware or ads on me. They have had a few missteps in the past, but all the other companies are so much worse. Plus their customer service has been leagues better than everyone else...which isn’t hard since no one else has any stores I can go and get my problem fixed at.
    - 7y ago
- spodek 7y ago
  Agreed. My past several computers have been used from Craig's List, $500 for roughly $2,000 machines. Installing Mint has been flawless. Everything just works (Lenovo Carbon X1).
- Vrondi 7y ago
  External keyboards? LOL!
delfinom 7y ago
>Apple doesn't cheat me on my privacy when I buy a machine. Except that siri thing
- Austin_Conlon 7y ago
  Could you elaborate? “Hey Siri” is opt-in when you set up a Mac.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    GP is referring to the fact that Apple contractors were manually reviewing Siri recordings, which frequently included private conversations in which Siri activated erroneously. "Hey Siri" may be opt in, but you're encouraged to enable it when you set up a new device, and someone who turns it on isn't necessarily okay with their private conversations being reviewed. Buying a computer in the first place is technically "opt-in" too.
- rubbingalcohol 7y ago
  The installer itself lets you choose to enable or disable Siri. Like it's one of the first choices you make when you first set up the machine.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    As someone else pointed out: That isn't the issue. It was because they lied about your privacy when you opted in. Some folks, would they have known what they know now, wouldn't have opted in.
    - emsy 7y ago
      Still important. Try to get rid of Cortana for instance. MS is forcing that crap down your throat.
      - wtallis 7y ago
echelon 7y ago
Thinkpads do not have this crapware installed and can run Linux exceptionally well. You should look into one, because they're the best engineering laptop on the market. Thinkpads have excellent keyboards, are user serviceable, support SIM cards, have tons of ports, are rugged yet lightweight. The manuals have hardware break downs to help you reinstall battery, RAM, drives, modems, etc. The machines last forever. I have a few that are over a decade old and are still a joy to write software on. Thinkpads are truly at another level.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  Not to mention a 3 year on-site warranty (pretty much..it slightly varies on region) as standard on a T series. My 470P was expensive for a windows laptop at £1368 (I went for the 2560x1440/nvme/i7-7700HQ) but the peace of mind of having it fixed within days combined with the build quality still makes me happy with it as a purchase.
- virtualwhys 7y ago
  > You should look into one, because they're the best engineering laptop on the market. Dell Precision line may not have the great TP keyboard, but otherwise it's hard to beat a 7740, for example, performance-wise. If anything the Thinkpad P73 and Precision 7740 are similar spec-wise (7740 has marginally faster processor i9-9880HK vs. i9-9880H, and GPU, RTX 5000 vs. 4000), with the P73 coming in at 1lb heavier. Though you'll pay through the nose for the 7740 with maxed out specs. Just for kicks I configured the following machine: CPU: i9-9880HK GPU: RTX 5000 HD: 4 X 2TB SSD (RAID 0) RAM: 128GB SCREEN: UHD 3840 X 2160 A mere $21K USD :)
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Thinkpads do not have this crapware installed and can run Linux exceptionally well It's still supporting a company that thinks it's OK to install crapware on their consumer machines. Machines intended for the people least able to mitigate the problem. Even if someone's not an Apple fan, he's right to send his money to another company.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
Medicalidiot 7y ago
I'm not a huge fan of Apple, but I love everything about my 2019 MBP minus the keyboard. After using Linux for close to a decade it's a fairly seamless transition compared to going back to Windows.
- dehrmann 7y ago
  You should look into how to recover data if the laptop doesn't boot.
  - rovr138 7y ago
    Use your backups and then pull all your repos. Other scenarios in which this helps is if your laptop is stolen or if the hard drive dies.
- mcv 7y ago
  With Apple's direction towards their walled garden, glued components, questionable changes to their macbooks, and their recent keyboard troubles, I vowed to buy something else this time. But crap like this might chase me back into the arms of Apple.
chachachoney 7y ago
>> Apple doesn't cheat me on my privacy when I buy a machine. Have you ever monitored all the telemetry Mac OS sends back to apple related domains?
- aloknnikhil 7y ago
  If you didn't opt-in to data collection during setup, the only telemetry that goes out is crash reports (also an opt-in for every crash). Crash reports have nothing more than the stack trace and some information on the environment/OS parameters on the system. Nothing that's PII.
  - whenchamenia 7y ago
    Crash reports can and do often contain identifible data.
plg 7y ago
What about Microsoft surface book? I have colleagues who are in science/coding/tech and they really like them.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  You mean the one with the screen so fragile you can break it just by closing the laptop normally, replacement of which MS won't cover under warranty because they insist it's not a defect?
  - plg 7y ago
    uh I guess? didn't know about that, haven't heard that before
mrkeen 7y ago
I owned a MBP back around 2007. I later purchased (in-person, in-store) an ipad pro using a credit card, maybe around 2015. The receipt they gave me had my email address printed on it. That really creeped me out.
coldtea 7y ago
They keyboard, ok, and I'll give you the "pro" (though, if you're talking about their laptops and not their desktop pro model, they were totally pro). But this sounds like hardly a complain: "New product lines were confusing. The existence of the MacBook alongside the MacBook Air defied logic" One could always buy one or the other or neither...

elorant 7y ago

Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I can't understand some of you guys. You pay 2k for a laptop which has a shitty keyboard and then you look for excuses to justify your decision. Sure, a lot of what you mention about Windows machines is true. But they're also preventable with work arounds. What kind of a work-around is there for the problem with MacPros keyboards? I have a Toshiba laptop (Tecra Z40). Aside from the crap they install to make their tailor-made hardware to work everything else is stellar. The machine works for the last two years problem free, and it will probably keep working for another five. Don't make it sound like every non Apple laptop is crap because it isn't.

acqq 7y ago
> Then buy a Linux laptop. Problem(s) solved. I use Linux on the notebooks since around 2003. The problems are far from being solved, from my experience: - There was constantly some piece of hardware that wasn't supported. - There were constantly pieces of operating system and user space that were simply broken until a lot of manual work is applied. - The brokenness increases with every update. At the start I didn't use LTS (I don't even remember if the LTS versions even existed for the distro I've used) -- it was a major pain. Six months go by, new upgrade, everything's broken. Search the internet, ask: "oh you upgrade an existing installation? It's not tested, you should installed blank and copied your data, we do that" -- oh thanks. - The brokenness of power saving is amazingly persistent. Linux notebooks typically worked acceptable only when plugged in. - Even worse, the brokenness of the possibility of playing the stutter free videos: https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ I have still that problem (it was not only "flash" that was and is the problem!) and discovered that the "lighter" compositors that are advertised as supposedly needing less resources made even worse results. I still have computers that in 2019 with the latest Linuxes can't play videos normally, whereas on the same computer videos in Windows play perfectly. In short, if you need a computer only for a very reduced set of tasks and are ready to spend the time "fixing" the remaining issues, Linux can work for you. But don't expect "problems solved." On another side using Windows brings its own crazy pains: if you keep even the Windows provided "antivirus" solution on, even file copying can be orders of magnitude slower than what the machine would be able to do. Plus the crapware. And the exposure to many more viruses trojans etc. Or even the ads built in in the OS. So what's then left? Apple. Also not perfect, of course, but some problems are actually "solved" from the start. But using Apple computers brings its own issues and, of course, prices. It's just the question which kinds of problems you want to be exposed to. I personally can't stand not being able to reasonably easy replace a hard disk in my notebook. I don't even know what I can buy the next time.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  This. When I buy a laptop I want to pay a big pile of money to ensure real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use. It’s the most important feature of a laptop so I don’t mind that being a significant chunk of the price for only that. When I buy a dell or Lenovo I expect crapware but I expect to be able to remove it by installing a clean OS on it.
  - acqq 7y ago
    > real people have tested my exact hardware with the OS and drivers I intend to use > When I buy a dell or Lenovo It's still nothing guaranteed with Linux distros, it's just that "mostly works" (for various definitions of "works") state is maintained: recently there was a quite big kernel bug delivered as a trivial update, which affected LTS version of Ubuntu, including Dells and many other brands, as soon as there was a second monitor attached to the machine. The recent Dell docks more didn't than did work for a while, it took many firmware updates to make them "mostly" working. But it still doesn't behave how it should. Etc.
    - alkonaut 7y ago
      Yes, I don't use desktop linux. When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. If I ever did buy a deskop linux machine I'd buy one of the preinstalled ones to ensure I wouldn't have to fight the tiny issues with multi-screen DPI, various sleep states etc. Those things are hard enough for manufacturers to get right in windows and Mac OS it seems.
      - acqq 7y ago
        > When I spoke about dell/lenovo I only have experience with Windows. As far as I see, even with Dell, the modern hardware is too commonly untested and poorly developed or integrated with the OS, even with Windows: in my company I don't know anybody who uses built-in trackpads, as it's a common knowledge that they "don't work" but everybody carries the mouse around. I've tried to use the trackpad only to see it broken between different Windows versions (so very like Linux). The same story with the docks -- they seem to worked badly even on Windows. The Dell puts their brand on the final product, but they just integrate whatever they can get at the moment. And even if you integrate Intel devices, they can remain in the software support limbo (happened to me with the Intel WiFi cards which remained unsupported and not working on Windows 10, even if Microsoft forced the upgrade as "everything works"). It's a sad state of the hardware - software integration. And knowing the Apple's problem with the keyboards, it seems that the only portable devices currently fully working "as they should" are the phones and tablets.
areoform 7y ago
I feel this comment is unnecessarily combative. Setting aside security. I have owned laptops from every major brand. IBM ThinkPads, Toshibas, Lenevos, Dells, Macs and ASUS. So far, other than ASUS, I've run into more hardware issues with these laptops with fewer repair options available. They've also had bad battery lives compared to the Macs at the time. I've bought laptops and flashed Linux on them. I've used Ubuntu since Hardy Heron. But none of the laptops worked as seamlessly and as well as my Macs. The touchpad wouldn't work. The WiFi would fail. Sometimes updates broke the machine if they worked at all. Printers weren't plug and play. A few times the system crashed because of a configuration error that was unintentional. All in all, it was a poor experience. The difference in the experience is summed up by what happens when you open the box. A new Linux laptop would require an install, then hunting down the files, copying it over, doing updates, changing settings, changing the configuration etc etc. A new Mac is simple. I bring it home. Turn it on. It goes on my WiFi, finds my Time Machine and does the rest. I have perfect continuity from my old machine to the new. I have settings and programs here from 3 machines ago. I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. Moreover, from a security perspective, I trust a company like Toshiba less. Mostly because the Toshiba comes with a ton of bloatware installed; https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLFaPR9AOW1Y64Cw&q=toshiba+bios+bloatware&oq=toshiba+bios+bloatware&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l2.420558.423118..423290...1.3..1.816.4900.2-5j5j1j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j33i160.JgbvSY3DVC4&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5uvtkNDkAhWjKH0KHZaqA7cQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&ei=hsR8XZmLF... and you never know what they might install. As of writing, my Mac just doesn't.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  >I like to use my computer to work rather than working on the computer. This is why I’m willing to pay whatever Apple asks. As far as I can tell, they have done the most to earn my trust that they might not try to shove malware or ads on me. They have had a few missteps in the past, but all the other companies are so much worse. Plus their customer service has been leagues better than everyone else...which isn’t hard since no one else has any stores I can go and get my problem fixed at.
  - 7y ago
spodek 7y ago
Agreed. My past several computers have been used from Craig's List, $500 for roughly $2,000 machines. Installing Mint has been flawless. Everything just works (Lenovo Carbon X1).
Vrondi 7y ago
External keyboards? LOL!

delfinom 7y ago

>Apple doesn't cheat me on my privacy when I buy a machine. Except that siri thing

Austin_Conlon 7y ago
Could you elaborate? “Hey Siri” is opt-in when you set up a Mac.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  GP is referring to the fact that Apple contractors were manually reviewing Siri recordings, which frequently included private conversations in which Siri activated erroneously. "Hey Siri" may be opt in, but you're encouraged to enable it when you set up a new device, and someone who turns it on isn't necessarily okay with their private conversations being reviewed. Buying a computer in the first place is technically "opt-in" too.
rubbingalcohol 7y ago
The installer itself lets you choose to enable or disable Siri. Like it's one of the first choices you make when you first set up the machine.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  As someone else pointed out: That isn't the issue. It was because they lied about your privacy when you opted in. Some folks, would they have known what they know now, wouldn't have opted in.
  - emsy 7y ago
    Still important. Try to get rid of Cortana for instance. MS is forcing that crap down your throat.
    - wtallis 7y ago

echelon 7y ago

Thinkpads do not have this crapware installed and can run Linux exceptionally well. You should look into one, because they're the best engineering laptop on the market. Thinkpads have excellent keyboards, are user serviceable, support SIM cards, have tons of ports, are rugged yet lightweight. The manuals have hardware break downs to help you reinstall battery, RAM, drives, modems, etc. The machines last forever. I have a few that are over a decade old and are still a joy to write software on. Thinkpads are truly at another level.

noir_lord 7y ago
Not to mention a 3 year on-site warranty (pretty much..it slightly varies on region) as standard on a T series. My 470P was expensive for a windows laptop at £1368 (I went for the 2560x1440/nvme/i7-7700HQ) but the peace of mind of having it fixed within days combined with the build quality still makes me happy with it as a purchase.
virtualwhys 7y ago
> You should look into one, because they're the best engineering laptop on the market. Dell Precision line may not have the great TP keyboard, but otherwise it's hard to beat a 7740, for example, performance-wise. If anything the Thinkpad P73 and Precision 7740 are similar spec-wise (7740 has marginally faster processor i9-9880HK vs. i9-9880H, and GPU, RTX 5000 vs. 4000), with the P73 coming in at 1lb heavier. Though you'll pay through the nose for the 7740 with maxed out specs. Just for kicks I configured the following machine: CPU: i9-9880HK GPU: RTX 5000 HD: 4 X 2TB SSD (RAID 0) RAM: 128GB SCREEN: UHD 3840 X 2160 A mere $21K USD :)
reaperducer 7y ago
Thinkpads do not have this crapware installed and can run Linux exceptionally well It's still supporting a company that thinks it's OK to install crapware on their consumer machines. Machines intended for the people least able to mitigate the problem. Even if someone's not an Apple fan, he's right to send his money to another company.
- noisem4ker 7y ago

Medicalidiot 7y ago

I'm not a huge fan of Apple, but I love everything about my 2019 MBP minus the keyboard. After using Linux for close to a decade it's a fairly seamless transition compared to going back to Windows.

dehrmann 7y ago
You should look into how to recover data if the laptop doesn't boot.
- rovr138 7y ago
  Use your backups and then pull all your repos. Other scenarios in which this helps is if your laptop is stolen or if the hard drive dies.
mcv 7y ago
With Apple's direction towards their walled garden, glued components, questionable changes to their macbooks, and their recent keyboard troubles, I vowed to buy something else this time. But crap like this might chase me back into the arms of Apple.

chachachoney 7y ago

>> Apple doesn't cheat me on my privacy when I buy a machine. Have you ever monitored all the telemetry Mac OS sends back to apple related domains?

aloknnikhil 7y ago
If you didn't opt-in to data collection during setup, the only telemetry that goes out is crash reports (also an opt-in for every crash). Crash reports have nothing more than the stack trace and some information on the environment/OS parameters on the system. Nothing that's PII.
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  Crash reports can and do often contain identifible data.

plg 7y ago

What about Microsoft surface book? I have colleagues who are in science/coding/tech and they really like them.

staticautomatic 7y ago
You mean the one with the screen so fragile you can break it just by closing the laptop normally, replacement of which MS won't cover under warranty because they insist it's not a defect?
- plg 7y ago
  uh I guess? didn't know about that, haven't heard that before

mrkeen 7y ago

I owned a MBP back around 2007. I later purchased (in-person, in-store) an ipad pro using a credit card, maybe around 2015. The receipt they gave me had my email address printed on it. That really creeped me out.

coldtea 7y ago

They keyboard, ok, and I'll give you the "pro" (though, if you're talking about their laptops and not their desktop pro model, they were totally pro). But this sounds like hardly a complain: "New product lines were confusing. The existence of the MacBook alongside the MacBook Air defied logic" One could always buy one or the other or neither...