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> Blizzard had a long distraction with WoW, then they made Starcraft 2 followed by the MOBA Heroes of the Storm. They’re still insanely successful. Now they’re

> Blizzard had a long distraction with WoW, then they made Starcraft 2 followed by the MOBA Heroes of the Storm. They’re still insanely successful. Now they’re remaking their old games, recently releasing a HD remake of Starcraft 1 and are about to release a remake of Warcraft III. Blizzard went off the rails by dumbing down WoW steadily over ten years, appealing to the lowest common demoninator. Modern WoW is boring, unchallenging, and appears designed to provoke the least amount of whining by a vocal but dispassionate player base. If you look at a chart of subscriptions over time, it peaked with an expansion ten years ago, and has declined steadily since. This coincides with changes to the game that made it require less time, less thinking, and less skill. I imagine they felt they were broadening the appeal, but they turned off the players who made the game a blockbuster. If you removed people who still pay for it but don't play, or people clinging to nostalgia, the numbers would tank even more. I was surprised when they re-released the original game as "Classic WoW". While I don't know what the subscriber numbers look like, the servers are overflowing, and the player base is even more passionate than when it was released 15 years ago. I think the same thing happened with other recent Blizzard games. They went for mass appeal in a way that turned off the players who helped build their empire. Chasing the MOBA fad didn't work out for them. I'm glad they're going back to their roots. Maybe I'm just a crusty old gamer nostalgic for the past, but there are a lot of us out there.

Ntrails 7y ago
I am not sure I buy into this narrative so much anymore. The game is old and the original userbase has moved on. I am not convinced that WoW could ever have kept catching new players and retaining the old ones however they chose to proceed. The burst of excitement for Classic will last a while and then fade too. I think, at least.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  I think Classic will fade, because it's hyped up to be more than it really is. Old WoW was difficult, but part of that difficulty was that people just weren't as good at the game back then (or games in general?). Many people were already doing Molten Core just a few days after release of Classic.
  - fruffy 7y ago
    I do not know. Those are hardcore players so that was expected. A lot of people are looking for the community feeling and a slower playing pace which does not focus on min-maxing. Classic can definitely give you that.
    - Ntrails 7y ago
      I cannot help but feel community cannot exist if you don't have single shard worlds with no cross server play at all
temporaryvector 7y ago
>Blizzard went off the rails by dumbing down WoW [...], appealing to the lowest common demoninator. [...] WoW is boring, unchallenging, and appears designed to provoke the least amount of whining by a vocal but dispassionate player base. I was around the MMO scene back when Blizzard was developing WoW, and this was the general sentiment around the community even at the time, it was seen as the care-bearest of the all the care-bear MMOs (which is what people at the time called MMOs that weren't hardcore enough for them, particularly in the PvP area). A lot of people that WoW was a step backwards for MMORPGs. At the time MMO developers were doing a lot of interesting things with games like DAoC, Star Wars: Galaxies, Anarchy Online, etc. There was something for all tastes, in particular games like SWG were starting to feature persistent player-build towns, non-combat focused professions that actually made sense to use, interesting skill systems and a more social experience. At the time WoW felt like a return to the old days of Everquest, only even more simplified and polished (which makes sense since some of the same people were involved). There was even a sort of a competition (more of a shouting match) between Everquest II fans and WoW fans before either game got released as to which would be the future of MMO games. We all know how that fight went. What I and many MMO fans at the time failed to understand is that WoW wasn't for us. It was for people who had never player a MMO game before. It wasn't an attempt to get MMO fans invested in Warcraft, it was a brilliant move to introduce all the Warcraft fans to MMOs (and the marketing material at the time was very clear about it). It was all designed from the ground up for people who had never even known that MMOs existed, since the MMO market was pretty small back then, and what little there was was pretty divided. This is also why many people these days have fondness for "Classic WoW," because it was their first, and you never forget your first. Incidentally my first was a pretty shit game called The 4th Coming and I still remember it fondly, while ignoring most of its faults (what kind of casual needs an interactive map anyway, just look at this still picture that roughly resembles the world and navigate using landmarks, much more immersive that way). This is also the reason why all the WoW clones never caught on. The people making them (or changing their game to be more like WoW, looking at you New Game Experience) failed to realize that most WoW players don't really like MMOs, they like WoW, specifically. Writing this has made me feel pretty old, but I very clearly remember scoffing at WoW players as casuals and their game as an Everquest clone. Here I was playing much better games like UO and SWG and they didn't even know better. Well, time passed and now I'm the one that didn't know better, but I'm still kinda bitter that the success of WoW massively contributed to the death of the type of MMO I liked, and even if it looks like WoWs influence over the newer MMOs is slowly fading, I don't think I'll ever get to enjoy any new MMO the same way I enjoyed the originals.
Madmallard 7y ago
"Modern WoW is [...] unchallenging" Well this is just false. I would say the mythic raids are the hardest theyve ever been. Mythic+ offers its own scaling difficulty from easy to hard to impossible. PvP is as engaging and tough as ever. Id argue these are all fun too. Maybe you've just moved on. The game has to change overtime.
- Krasnol 7y ago
  Yeah but Mythic+ is not the mainstream content most of the players experience in the game. And the anti-social behaviour and elitism surrounding those groups who do M+ has even become a meme. The mainstream wow content is ridiculously unchallenging. You are grinding dailys you can join up queues to do your daily/weekly run of the instances and repeat next Wednesday. This is what most of the people playing retail see and do. The most challenging thing about it is not stopping out of boredom.
  - loktarogar 7y ago
    So..... the game is both difficult and unchallenging?
    - Krasnol 7y ago
      No. This is not what I wrote there. I try again: Most of the game content and mechanics is unchallenging. A group of people "guarding" the tiny difficult part are difficult.
  - pfdietz 7y ago
    > Yeah but Mythic+ is not the mainstream content most of the players experience in the game. So, your objection seems to be that players who don't want challenging content are catered to much at all. You don't want those players, who comprise most of the player population, to have "mainstream content". Viewed in that light, I don't see how your criticism can be viewed as legitimate.
    - Krasnol 7y ago
axython 7y ago
I'll disagree so, so very much with this and I am certain this comes from someone who hasn't played the game for a while or played very casually. Yes, doing quests and just roaming around has became way easier than before, however the game has tons of room for anyone who actually wants a challenge. I don't want to go super deep, but high end raiding is still alive and finally started getting monetized/sponsored plus you can always push mythic+ dungeons. It has to be noted, that all of this is group content and what WoW lacks right now is difficult solo content and I'd give you that. Basicly right now the retail WoW can be played as time-intensively and on whatever difficulty you want. There is always something to do, however you hit diminishing returns quite soon. There is tons of hard, engaging content to be done with friends. I think Classic is kinda fad, something a lot of people think they wanted, but after some time they will realize they did not. Of course, I might be wrong in which case I am happy they got a completely new game to play and hope they enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the two years of WoW Legion(had to stop, because I did not have time to play at the level I wanted). On the other hand, I can't wait for Warcraft 3 Remastered, that will work by default with most of old custom maps. I am taking a week off for that. :)
- slfnflctd 7y ago
  > what WoW lacks right now is difficult solo content This is what burned me out on it to begin with, and I'm still kinda there. Instead of providing interesting and difficult challenges, they introduced vast amounts of repetitive tediousness. I seek out well-crafted tension and release in my entertainment, but I don't have a lot of free time. On a regular basis, I want to struggle somewhat and maybe need a few attempts to defeat a challenging scenario, then occasionally receive a nontrivial reward for it. It's not a complex formula, just one WoW doesn't provide. If they did, I would be more likely to consider a subscription. Another aspect which could give the 'more challenging yet not too time intensive single player campaign' a better chance in the market is making minor tweaks to such campaigns so they're also playable by a couple. There are tons of couples who have played this game together over the years (probably most of whom have limited interest in coordinating lengthy raids with strangers in their limited free time). It seems to me like a win-win to provide them and solo players something interesting to do that doesn't require too much grinding.
Dumblydorr 7y ago
Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2, neither are dumbed down, the pace of new features is just very very very slow, esp fof SCRM aka broodwar.
pfdietz 7y ago
Blizzard tried very hard to get WoW players to be hardcore. That attempt largely failed. They even admitted it in the New York Times. So they had a choice: just write off most of that large and lucrative audience, or adjust the game to cater to them. Arguably they didn't go far enough in that. The argument that the game declined as it was made easier, and therefore making it easier caused the decline, is a great example of confusing cause and effect. The game was made easier, or at least was made to have easier elements, because non-hardcore players were churning out. The alternative scenario, that keeping the game exclusive would have retained players better, is absurd on its face. How does content that a player does not do, and that tells that player they are bad, retain that player? If anything, that content is a net negative for that player.

Ntrails 7y ago

I am not sure I buy into this narrative so much anymore. The game is old and the original userbase has moved on. I am not convinced that WoW could ever have kept catching new players and retaining the old ones however they chose to proceed. The burst of excitement for Classic will last a while and then fade too. I think, at least.

Mirioron 7y ago
I think Classic will fade, because it's hyped up to be more than it really is. Old WoW was difficult, but part of that difficulty was that people just weren't as good at the game back then (or games in general?). Many people were already doing Molten Core just a few days after release of Classic.
- fruffy 7y ago
  I do not know. Those are hardcore players so that was expected. A lot of people are looking for the community feeling and a slower playing pace which does not focus on min-maxing. Classic can definitely give you that.
  - Ntrails 7y ago
    I cannot help but feel community cannot exist if you don't have single shard worlds with no cross server play at all

temporaryvector 7y ago

>Blizzard went off the rails by dumbing down WoW [...], appealing to the lowest common demoninator. [...] WoW is boring, unchallenging, and appears designed to provoke the least amount of whining by a vocal but dispassionate player base. I was around the MMO scene back when Blizzard was developing WoW, and this was the general sentiment around the community even at the time, it was seen as the care-bearest of the all the care-bear MMOs (which is what people at the time called MMOs that weren't hardcore enough for them, particularly in the PvP area). A lot of people that WoW was a step backwards for MMORPGs. At the time MMO developers were doing a lot of interesting things with games like DAoC, Star Wars: Galaxies, Anarchy Online, etc. There was something for all tastes, in particular games like SWG were starting to feature persistent player-build towns, non-combat focused professions that actually made sense to use, interesting skill systems and a more social experience. At the time WoW felt like a return to the old days of Everquest, only even more simplified and polished (which makes sense since some of the same people were involved). There was even a sort of a competition (more of a shouting match) between Everquest II fans and WoW fans before either game got released as to which would be the future of MMO games. We all know how that fight went. What I and many MMO fans at the time failed to understand is that WoW wasn't for us. It was for people who had never player a MMO game before. It wasn't an attempt to get MMO fans invested in Warcraft, it was a brilliant move to introduce all the Warcraft fans to MMOs (and the marketing material at the time was very clear about it). It was all designed from the ground up for people who had never even known that MMOs existed, since the MMO market was pretty small back then, and what little there was was pretty divided. This is also why many people these days have fondness for "Classic WoW," because it was their first, and you never forget your first. Incidentally my first was a pretty shit game called The 4th Coming and I still remember it fondly, while ignoring most of its faults (what kind of casual needs an interactive map anyway, just look at this still picture that roughly resembles the world and navigate using landmarks, much more immersive that way). This is also the reason why all the WoW clones never caught on. The people making them (or changing their game to be more like WoW, looking at you New Game Experience) failed to realize that most WoW players don't really like MMOs, they like WoW, specifically. Writing this has made me feel pretty old, but I very clearly remember scoffing at WoW players as casuals and their game as an Everquest clone. Here I was playing much better games like UO and SWG and they didn't even know better. Well, time passed and now I'm the one that didn't know better, but I'm still kinda bitter that the success of WoW massively contributed to the death of the type of MMO I liked, and even if it looks like WoWs influence over the newer MMOs is slowly fading, I don't think I'll ever get to enjoy any new MMO the same way I enjoyed the originals.

Madmallard 7y ago

"Modern WoW is [...] unchallenging" Well this is just false. I would say the mythic raids are the hardest theyve ever been. Mythic+ offers its own scaling difficulty from easy to hard to impossible. PvP is as engaging and tough as ever. Id argue these are all fun too. Maybe you've just moved on. The game has to change overtime.

Krasnol 7y ago
Yeah but Mythic+ is not the mainstream content most of the players experience in the game. And the anti-social behaviour and elitism surrounding those groups who do M+ has even become a meme. The mainstream wow content is ridiculously unchallenging. You are grinding dailys you can join up queues to do your daily/weekly run of the instances and repeat next Wednesday. This is what most of the people playing retail see and do. The most challenging thing about it is not stopping out of boredom.
- loktarogar 7y ago
  So..... the game is both difficult and unchallenging?
  - Krasnol 7y ago
    No. This is not what I wrote there. I try again: Most of the game content and mechanics is unchallenging. A group of people "guarding" the tiny difficult part are difficult.
- pfdietz 7y ago
  > Yeah but Mythic+ is not the mainstream content most of the players experience in the game. So, your objection seems to be that players who don't want challenging content are catered to much at all. You don't want those players, who comprise most of the player population, to have "mainstream content". Viewed in that light, I don't see how your criticism can be viewed as legitimate.
  - Krasnol 7y ago

axython 7y ago

I'll disagree so, so very much with this and I am certain this comes from someone who hasn't played the game for a while or played very casually. Yes, doing quests and just roaming around has became way easier than before, however the game has tons of room for anyone who actually wants a challenge. I don't want to go super deep, but high end raiding is still alive and finally started getting monetized/sponsored plus you can always push mythic+ dungeons. It has to be noted, that all of this is group content and what WoW lacks right now is difficult solo content and I'd give you that. Basicly right now the retail WoW can be played as time-intensively and on whatever difficulty you want. There is always something to do, however you hit diminishing returns quite soon. There is tons of hard, engaging content to be done with friends. I think Classic is kinda fad, something a lot of people think they wanted, but after some time they will realize they did not. Of course, I might be wrong in which case I am happy they got a completely new game to play and hope they enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the two years of WoW Legion(had to stop, because I did not have time to play at the level I wanted). On the other hand, I can't wait for Warcraft 3 Remastered, that will work by default with most of old custom maps. I am taking a week off for that. :)

slfnflctd 7y ago
> what WoW lacks right now is difficult solo content This is what burned me out on it to begin with, and I'm still kinda there. Instead of providing interesting and difficult challenges, they introduced vast amounts of repetitive tediousness. I seek out well-crafted tension and release in my entertainment, but I don't have a lot of free time. On a regular basis, I want to struggle somewhat and maybe need a few attempts to defeat a challenging scenario, then occasionally receive a nontrivial reward for it. It's not a complex formula, just one WoW doesn't provide. If they did, I would be more likely to consider a subscription. Another aspect which could give the 'more challenging yet not too time intensive single player campaign' a better chance in the market is making minor tweaks to such campaigns so they're also playable by a couple. There are tons of couples who have played this game together over the years (probably most of whom have limited interest in coordinating lengthy raids with strangers in their limited free time). It seems to me like a win-win to provide them and solo players something interesting to do that doesn't require too much grinding.

Dumblydorr 7y ago

Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2, neither are dumbed down, the pace of new features is just very very very slow, esp fof SCRM aka broodwar.

pfdietz 7y ago

Blizzard tried very hard to get WoW players to be hardcore. That attempt largely failed. They even admitted it in the New York Times. So they had a choice: just write off most of that large and lucrative audience, or adjust the game to cater to them. Arguably they didn't go far enough in that. The argument that the game declined as it was made easier, and therefore making it easier caused the decline, is a great example of confusing cause and effect. The game was made easier, or at least was made to have easier elements, because non-hardcore players were churning out. The alternative scenario, that keeping the game exclusive would have retained players better, is absurd on its face. How does content that a player does not do, and that tells that player they are bad, retain that player? If anything, that content is a net negative for that player.