5 ms·

Students who periodically disappear for long bouts of skiing, soul searching, or contract work tend to be put on the back burner by their advisor, making it muc

Students who periodically disappear for long bouts of skiing, soul searching, or contract work tend to be put on the back burner by their advisor, making it much more difficult to get re-engaged later on. An easy litmus test: if acting a certain way would get you fired from a real job, then it's probably a bad idea to try that in a Ph.D. program too. I tell students the worst thing they can do is lose contact with their advisor. That makes it extremely difficult to come back later.

geebee 16y ago
"An easy litmus test: if acting a certain way would get you fired from a real job, then it's probably a bad idea to try that in a Ph.D. program too." Well, ok. But try this: "if acting a certain way would lose you an employee at a real job, then it's probably a bad idea to try this with a Ph.D student too." Like using a student whose programming skills are probably worth over $100K in the real world as an indentured servant, dependent on you for a degree (and perhaps even a visa to remain in the country). The problem is, of course, that there is a serious power imbalance here. They can definitely say "act like a professional" without feeling obligated to treat you (and certainly not pay you) like a professional.
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  > Like using a student whose programming skills are probably worth over $100K in the real world as an indentured servant, dependent on you for a degree (and perhaps even a visa to remain in the country). Supply and demand. There are way more people who wish to pursue a PhD in CS than there are spots for them. If you really would rather be on the outside making six figures, your adviser would be happy to oblige--(s)he can fill your chair tomorrow with any one of a hundred people who are equally qualified. It cuts the other way too--advisers who really treat their students like shit (as in, "pick up my dry cleaning") find that the supply of people who want to work with them dwindles. (Unless less they are so brilliant and well-connected that they can get away with it. It all evens out.) There is a market for talent both inside and outside of the university.
  - geebee 16y ago
    I agree with you that there is a market for talent, but I wouldn't call it a free market. I've seen it first hand. I was (briefly) a PhD student at UC Berkeley, and I left with a MS. Quickly, I was earning low six figures with stock options to write software that did optimization (linear/nonlinear programming) for a startup. A buddy of mine at Berkeley did the same thing for a professor as a research associate for about 15K a year. The difference? Well, of course he may be passionate about research, I can't rule that out. But you can't discount the visa factor: I have citizenship, and he doesn't (or at least didn't at the time). Maybe he could have left with an MS and still gotten a work visa, but would he have wanted to risk that on a startup? His options are simply more limited. I also heard (sorry, no cite) that UCSF took a hard look at its own PhD programs in response to very long completion times, and concluded that some of these 7 or 8 year PhD candidates were almost certainly being held an additional year because it's very difficult to find someone of that skill level to staff your lab. I suppose a US citizen could finally get fed up and leave - but keep in mind that US citizens actually have turned away from these programs in droves. While the mainstream explanation for this is poor science education in American secondary schools, a RAND study concluded that americans are avoiding PhD programs in the sciences largely because of excessively long training programs, poor job prospects, and low pay relative to the "professions" (MBA, JD, MD, DDS, etc...) I think that if PhD programs truly had to compete in a "free market", the current system would collapse. Right now, I think they have managed to avoid change largely because international students are willing to put up with a lot to get a visa, and the professional schools aren't as accessible if you aren't already a US citizen, so they still have takers.
  - itisfritz 16y ago
    This seems to prove many redditor's and hacker's conviction that college is a scam. How can you actually create a good environment to learn and grow when the ability to get in and be in the program are so poor?
- regehr 16y ago
  Yep. As we tried to make clear, there's an implicit contract and both sides must take their responsibilities seriously.

geebee 16y ago

"An easy litmus test: if acting a certain way would get you fired from a real job, then it's probably a bad idea to try that in a Ph.D. program too." Well, ok. But try this: "if acting a certain way would lose you an employee at a real job, then it's probably a bad idea to try this with a Ph.D student too." Like using a student whose programming skills are probably worth over $100K in the real world as an indentured servant, dependent on you for a degree (and perhaps even a visa to remain in the country). The problem is, of course, that there is a serious power imbalance here. They can definitely say "act like a professional" without feeling obligated to treat you (and certainly not pay you) like a professional.

hyperbovine 16y ago
> Like using a student whose programming skills are probably worth over $100K in the real world as an indentured servant, dependent on you for a degree (and perhaps even a visa to remain in the country). Supply and demand. There are way more people who wish to pursue a PhD in CS than there are spots for them. If you really would rather be on the outside making six figures, your adviser would be happy to oblige--(s)he can fill your chair tomorrow with any one of a hundred people who are equally qualified. It cuts the other way too--advisers who really treat their students like shit (as in, "pick up my dry cleaning") find that the supply of people who want to work with them dwindles. (Unless less they are so brilliant and well-connected that they can get away with it. It all evens out.) There is a market for talent both inside and outside of the university.
- geebee 16y ago
  I agree with you that there is a market for talent, but I wouldn't call it a free market. I've seen it first hand. I was (briefly) a PhD student at UC Berkeley, and I left with a MS. Quickly, I was earning low six figures with stock options to write software that did optimization (linear/nonlinear programming) for a startup. A buddy of mine at Berkeley did the same thing for a professor as a research associate for about 15K a year. The difference? Well, of course he may be passionate about research, I can't rule that out. But you can't discount the visa factor: I have citizenship, and he doesn't (or at least didn't at the time). Maybe he could have left with an MS and still gotten a work visa, but would he have wanted to risk that on a startup? His options are simply more limited. I also heard (sorry, no cite) that UCSF took a hard look at its own PhD programs in response to very long completion times, and concluded that some of these 7 or 8 year PhD candidates were almost certainly being held an additional year because it's very difficult to find someone of that skill level to staff your lab. I suppose a US citizen could finally get fed up and leave - but keep in mind that US citizens actually have turned away from these programs in droves. While the mainstream explanation for this is poor science education in American secondary schools, a RAND study concluded that americans are avoiding PhD programs in the sciences largely because of excessively long training programs, poor job prospects, and low pay relative to the "professions" (MBA, JD, MD, DDS, etc...) I think that if PhD programs truly had to compete in a "free market", the current system would collapse. Right now, I think they have managed to avoid change largely because international students are willing to put up with a lot to get a visa, and the professional schools aren't as accessible if you aren't already a US citizen, so they still have takers.
- itisfritz 16y ago
  This seems to prove many redditor's and hacker's conviction that college is a scam. How can you actually create a good environment to learn and grow when the ability to get in and be in the program are so poor?
regehr 16y ago
Yep. As we tried to make clear, there's an implicit contract and both sides must take their responsibilities seriously.