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Treading carefully here... It does not appear to me that Stallman is defending what we now know of Epstein's abhorrent conduct. Instead, he's engaging in a ve

by jMyles 7y ago

Treading carefully here... It does not appear to me that Stallman is defending what we now know of Epstein's abhorrent conduct. Instead, he's engaging in a very reasonable debate about the terminology of accusations like these. It's possible that I'm misreading this whole thing - if that's true, please point it out. But the article seems to indicate that the worst of Stallman's remarks are here: <unknown>: Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it __rape__ in the Virgin Islands <Stallman>: Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term ‘sexual assault’ is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone. ---- On this specific passage (and again, there may be other bad stuff I'm not seeing), I basically agree with Stallman. Rape is a serious, heinous offense to nature. It is morally absurd - and insensitive to victims - to define it as the person to whom Stallman is responding is apparently trying to do. The USA is a place of rampant sexism and obsession with alcohol (particularly its use as a date-rape drug, although for some reason we don't call it that). Rape is disgustingly commonplace. Talking about the laws of the Virgin Islands as they apply to a 17-year-old is a great example of distraction from this reality.

eesmith 7y ago
His definition of "sexual assault" doesn't match with the legal definition. Not by a long shot. It is not a reasonable debate about the terminology to throw away all current definitions and create new ones, without at least explaining why the current one is wrong.
- tastroder 7y ago
  I don't even follow the internal logic of that message. It's a reply to somebody applying a legal term and pointing out alleged specifics that seem to match with it's definition. And his rebuttal is an outright refusal of two of the main criteria in the legal sense (IANAL but victim's age and location of the alleged crime seem to be pretty relevant), mixed with a switch to a "dispute" about the definition of another term that a bygone generation takes issue with.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I agree. There's a bunch of people who don't seem to know what the word "assault" actually means, and who think it means "violent force is used".
    - curlypaul924 7y ago
      This is likely because the word "assault" is often used in conjunction with "battery", so there is a very understandable mental association.
- eesmith 7y ago
  For the downvoters, here's an example legal definition of assault - https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/ . Note that it is far wider than Stallman's definition, which requires physical assault.
  - sjy 7y ago
    If you accept Stallman's assumptions (the victim was 17, coerced by Epstein, and "presented as entirely willing" to Minsky), then Minsky did not commit a "sexual assault" as defined by that Colorado law. Which seems to be Stallman's point.
    - eesmith 7y ago
      There are several issues here, which you have combined into one: 1) Stallman states: "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, Only that they had sex. ... I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation. However, "sexual assault" as a legal term includes many examples where there is no use of force or violence. As I pointed out as a generic example. This was to show that Stallman's definition is wrong in the general sense. 2) Is it rape in the US Virgin Islands? Yes. The law is 14 V.I.C. § 1702 - https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=dbbf4abf-3a2a-428c-9859-4d34dfc21243&nodeid=AAQACAAAG&nodepath=%2FROOT%2FAAQ%2FAAQACA%2FAAQACAAAG&level=3&haschildren=&populated=false&title=%C2%A7%E2%80%821702.+Rape+in+the+second+degree&config=014DJAA3OWU1MmYyMC1kNzRhLTQ4NDAtYTMxZS01YzJhMzBkZDA0NDMKAFBvZENhdGFsb2dSOvVciRp0EcGxvMymeAXd&pddocfullpath=%2Fshared%2Fdocument%2Fstatutes-legislation%2Furn%3AcontentItem%3A5BWH-HCC1-DXC8-01NX-00008-00&ecomp=h3t7kkk&prid=54a8a047-53c8-4a1e-8679-c5d190a3c5d6 https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=... : > § 1702. Rape in the second degree > (a) Any person over 18 years of age who perpetrates under circumstances not amounting to rape in the first degree, an act of sexual intercourse or sodomy with a person who is at least 16 years but less than 18 years of age, and the perpetrator is 5 years or older than the victim, is guilty of rape in the second degree and shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years. That is, while the age of consent in Colorado is 17 (excluding child prostitution, which is until 18), it is 18 in the US V.I. Stallman doesn't like that US V.I. definition, but since his complaint is 'it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault”', his personal views don't really matter. At best he can say it's morally wrong, according to his own morals. 3) Is rape a form of sexual assault? Yes. Indeed, many states have replaced their rape laws with sexual assault laws. I cannot find where "sexual assault" is defined, for purposes of US V.I. law. It is used but not defined. In general, "sexual assault" is "any nonconsensual sexual act proscribed by Federal, tribal, or State law, including when the victim lacks capacity to consent." - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/34/12291#a_27 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/34/12291#a_27 (34 U.S. Code § 12291 (29)). Minors under the age of consent are not regarded as being able to consent to having sex, outside of a few limited exceptions (eg, similarity of age, sex with one's spouse). Thus, Stallman is wrong in saying 'it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation' of an old man having sex with a 17 year old woman in the Virgin Islands.
solipsism 7y ago
particularly its use as a date-rape drug, although for some reason we don't call it that That's a rather strange comment. Date rape drugging happens without the victim's knowledge or consent. That's markedly different from a person willingly drinking alcohol.
patthebunny 7y ago
This is not reasonable debate, it’s an entirely inappropriate and gross attempt to justify his friend participating in the sexual exploitation of minors. I have lost all respect for RMS. I’m not surprised to see this shit defended by hacker news schmucks. You people are the most out of touch morons I’ve ever seen.

by jMyles 7y ago

eesmith 7y ago

His definition of "sexual assault" doesn't match with the legal definition. Not by a long shot. It is not a reasonable debate about the terminology to throw away all current definitions and create new ones, without at least explaining why the current one is wrong.

tastroder 7y ago
I don't even follow the internal logic of that message. It's a reply to somebody applying a legal term and pointing out alleged specifics that seem to match with it's definition. And his rebuttal is an outright refusal of two of the main criteria in the legal sense (IANAL but victim's age and location of the alleged crime seem to be pretty relevant), mixed with a switch to a "dispute" about the definition of another term that a bygone generation takes issue with.
- DanBC 7y ago
  I agree. There's a bunch of people who don't seem to know what the word "assault" actually means, and who think it means "violent force is used".
  - curlypaul924 7y ago
    This is likely because the word "assault" is often used in conjunction with "battery", so there is a very understandable mental association.
eesmith 7y ago
For the downvoters, here's an example legal definition of assault - https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/ . Note that it is far wider than Stallman's definition, which requires physical assault.
- sjy 7y ago
  If you accept Stallman's assumptions (the victim was 17, coerced by Epstein, and "presented as entirely willing" to Minsky), then Minsky did not commit a "sexual assault" as defined by that Colorado law. Which seems to be Stallman's point.
  - eesmith 7y ago
    There are several issues here, which you have combined into one: 1) Stallman states: "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, Only that they had sex. ... I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation. However, "sexual assault" as a legal term includes many examples where there is no use of force or violence. As I pointed out as a generic example. This was to show that Stallman's definition is wrong in the general sense. 2) Is it rape in the US Virgin Islands? Yes. The law is 14 V.I.C. § 1702 - https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=dbbf4abf-3a2a-428c-9859-4d34dfc21243&nodeid=AAQACAAAG&nodepath=%2FROOT%2FAAQ%2FAAQACA%2FAAQACAAAG&level=3&haschildren=&populated=false&title=%C2%A7%E2%80%821702.+Rape+in+the+second+degree&config=014DJAA3OWU1MmYyMC1kNzRhLTQ4NDAtYTMxZS01YzJhMzBkZDA0NDMKAFBvZENhdGFsb2dSOvVciRp0EcGxvMymeAXd&pddocfullpath=%2Fshared%2Fdocument%2Fstatutes-legislation%2Furn%3AcontentItem%3A5BWH-HCC1-DXC8-01NX-00008-00&ecomp=h3t7kkk&prid=54a8a047-53c8-4a1e-8679-c5d190a3c5d6 https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=... : > § 1702. Rape in the second degree > (a) Any person over 18 years of age who perpetrates under circumstances not amounting to rape in the first degree, an act of sexual intercourse or sodomy with a person who is at least 16 years but less than 18 years of age, and the perpetrator is 5 years or older than the victim, is guilty of rape in the second degree and shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years. That is, while the age of consent in Colorado is 17 (excluding child prostitution, which is until 18), it is 18 in the US V.I. Stallman doesn't like that US V.I. definition, but since his complaint is 'it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault”', his personal views don't really matter. At best he can say it's morally wrong, according to his own morals. 3) Is rape a form of sexual assault? Yes. Indeed, many states have replaced their rape laws with sexual assault laws. I cannot find where "sexual assault" is defined, for purposes of US V.I. law. It is used but not defined. In general, "sexual assault" is "any nonconsensual sexual act proscribed by Federal, tribal, or State law, including when the victim lacks capacity to consent." - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/34/12291#a_27 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/34/12291#a_27 (34 U.S. Code § 12291 (29)). Minors under the age of consent are not regarded as being able to consent to having sex, outside of a few limited exceptions (eg, similarity of age, sex with one's spouse). Thus, Stallman is wrong in saying 'it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation' of an old man having sex with a 17 year old woman in the Virgin Islands.

solipsism 7y ago

particularly its use as a date-rape drug, although for some reason we don't call it that That's a rather strange comment. Date rape drugging happens without the victim's knowledge or consent. That's markedly different from a person willingly drinking alcohol.

patthebunny 7y ago

This is not reasonable debate, it’s an entirely inappropriate and gross attempt to justify his friend participating in the sexual exploitation of minors. I have lost all respect for RMS. I’m not surprised to see this shit defended by hacker news schmucks. You people are the most out of touch morons I’ve ever seen.