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>Your experimental methodology is flawed because it fails to control for water loss. I absolutely tested for water loss. What I found was that some extra (?) w

>Your experimental methodology is flawed because it fails to control for water loss. I absolutely tested for water loss. What I found was that some extra (?) water retained until we sleep. And that something happens with fat or other processing that occurs during sleep. Again, I charted my weight carefully multiple times a day over a month. Carefully testing when weight loss occured. I Recorded my diet as well as my exercise. I lost .5 lbs of fat (on average) every day for a month. The question I found interesting was "when/how do we actually lose weight?" It has to come out of our body somehow. And it's not through excrement, it's through urine. The reason I know this is because when doing my test I ate one meal a day, and I would sometimes not have a bowel movement for a few days, yet still have eaten a few meals and still lost weight.

ska 7y ago
> It has to come out of our body somehow. Mostly you breath it out, excepting water.
kerkeslager 7y ago
> I absolutely tested for water loss. No, you didn't. How do you think you tested for water loss? Briefly, you'd need to separate out the water for your urine, weigh that, then separate out the water from your feces, and weigh that, and spend all your time in a sealed chamber and monitor the humidity of that chamber to see how much water you're exhaling and sweating out. I'm guessing you did exactly none of this. Oh and after all that, there's the confounding fact that a small part of fat's mass is metabolized into water, so even measuring all your water excretion doesn't actually allow you to separate how much of that water is water you took in, and how much of that water is the result of fat metabolism. > And it's not through excrement, it's through urine. Given urine is mostly water and you didn't control for water loss, your result is exactly what I'd expect from water loss and not fat loss. Look, do you really think you're the first person to research this? There's a whole subfield of biochemistry devoted to this, with more brains, equipment, and funding than you have. You're right that weight mostly doesn't come out through excrement: most of the mass of burned fat is exhaled as CO2[1][2][3]. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216212047.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216212047.h... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-30494009 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-30494009 [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/weight-loss-fat-cells-what-happens-burned-scientist-explanation-carbon-dioxide-water-urine-a8258941.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  >How do you think you tested for water loss? Over time. I was not dehydrated at the end of the month, but I was 15+ 1bs lighter, and my neck, waist and limbs were slimmer. >do you really think you're the first person to research this? Nope, I have no such illusions. I find though that science _requires_ discussion to move forward. And I found a phenomenon. I can't explain the details, but the results are sound. I think it's simple to test my theory. Stay up all night, don't drink anything, do what you normally do. In the morning, you will not have lost any weight (call it water weight if you want). During sleep, your body does something different. Go take a nap, when you wake you will urinate again, but it will be different. But maybe you can only understand this difference if you are carefully monitoring your weight over an extended period of time? The reason I don't think the carbon dioxide thing is the primary method of weight loss is because of my tests, where your body weight simply does not normalize until after sleeping. I think the majority of the fat (by weight) comes out in urine. But I am just guessing based on my experiments over the past few years. Yep, I am an amateur scientist, but I control my weight now.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > Over time. I was not dehydrated at the end of the month, but I was 15+ 1bs lighter, and my neck, waist and limbs were slimmer. That establishes what month you lost fat in. It does not establish what time of day you lost fat in. It does not establish that you lost fat through your urine. I totally believe you that you lost weight in a month; I'm not objecting to to that claim. The claims you made that I am objecting to are: 1. That you know what time of day you lost weight in. 2. That you know you lost weight primarily through your urine. You did not control for water weight when testing either of these hypotheses. > I find though that science _requires_ discussion to move forward. No it doesn't. Discussion is sometimes helpful to the scientific method, but it is not a part of it. Science requires sound experimentation, which you have not done. > In the morning, you will not have lost any weight (call it water weight if you want). I don't need to stay up all night to demonstrate that I can lose weight while awake. I just got back from a run and had to go, so I urinated and lost 1.6 lbs according to measuring before and after on my bathroom scale. Since you've given me permission, I'll go ahead and call that water weight. > Go take a nap, when you wake you will urinate again, but it will be different. How will it be different? You've literally provided no explanation whatsoever for why you think there's fat mass in your urine. > But maybe you can only understand this difference if you are carefully monitoring your weight over an extended period of time? I have gathered my weight data almost every day for the last few months, to correlate with a weight training routine. Maybe I could understand the difference if you could explain it to me, but all you've done is just say there is a difference. > The reason I don't think the carbon dioxide thing is the primary method of weight loss is because of my tests, where your body weight simply does not normalize until after sleeping. What do you mean by normalize? > I think the majority of the fat (by weight) comes out in urine. Why do you think this? > But I am just guessing based on my experiments over the past few years. Yep, I am an amateur scientist, but I control my weight now. You don't get to call yourself even an amateur scientist if you refuse to even consider very obvious confounding factors. Science is about isolating phenomena, and if you haven't even measured the heaviest thing coming out of your body (water) then you can't claim to have isolated any information about lighter substances leaving your body. What you're doing is not science. I'm happy for you that you're controlling your weight, though. Good job.
kerkeslager 7y ago
A humorous conclusion we can draw from your posts is that if you're losing weight while you sleep and the weight comes out through urine, this must mean you urinate while you sleep. ;)
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Well, people are taking my statements wrong. I didn't mean to imply you "lose weight while you sleep", I meant to more clearly state "the fat you've already used, doesn't get expelled until you sleep". Again, a working theory to explain an observed effect.
UnFleshedOne 7y ago
Imagine that fat gets burned at the exact moment when you eat or drink anything. On your chart, even if it is realtime, you would see weight gain, then later during the day and night you pee and exhale little more than if that fat burn didn't happen. But that burn is say 1% of intake and it gets spread over few hours. Would your tracking method allow you to detect the moment of weight loss in this hypothetical scenario?
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  I don't think so, I can't say for sure when fat is burned or anything like that. I agree that it has to be done while you are using energy during the day. Some people seem to be thinking that I am saying "fat only gets burned during sleep" which is just absurd, and I am not suggesting that at all. I think if I was to make a theory it would be something like "fat used up during the day produces waste that is partly stored in the body after being used, but during sleep is when this waste is collected and expelled in the urine." Maybe poorly worded but sums up my thinking right now. This is a rough guess, but since I haven't seen anything like this reported anywhere I figured it's worth sharing the experience.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > I think if I was to make a theory it would be something like "fat used up during the day produces waste that is partly stored in the body after being used, but during sleep is when this waste is collected and expelled in the urine." And how did you detect the fat waste in your urine? > This is a rough guess, but since I haven't seen anything like this reported anywhere I figured it's worth sharing the experience. The reason you didn't see anything like this reported anywhere is that it's not true. Experience is something I can't argue with. I can't argue, for example, that you lost weight. However, you've stepped well beyond just "reporting your experience" here. In what way did you "experience" expelling fat waste products through your urine? The answer is, you didn't--you experienced expelling water. You're not adding to our collective knowledge by reporting your subjective interpretations here. You're propagating misinformation.
    - 7y ago

ska 7y ago

> It has to come out of our body somehow. Mostly you breath it out, excepting water.

kerkeslager 7y ago

> I absolutely tested for water loss. No, you didn't. How do you think you tested for water loss? Briefly, you'd need to separate out the water for your urine, weigh that, then separate out the water from your feces, and weigh that, and spend all your time in a sealed chamber and monitor the humidity of that chamber to see how much water you're exhaling and sweating out. I'm guessing you did exactly none of this. Oh and after all that, there's the confounding fact that a small part of fat's mass is metabolized into water, so even measuring all your water excretion doesn't actually allow you to separate how much of that water is water you took in, and how much of that water is the result of fat metabolism. > And it's not through excrement, it's through urine. Given urine is mostly water and you didn't control for water loss, your result is exactly what I'd expect from water loss and not fat loss. Look, do you really think you're the first person to research this? There's a whole subfield of biochemistry devoted to this, with more brains, equipment, and funding than you have. You're right that weight mostly doesn't come out through excrement: most of the mass of burned fat is exhaled as CO2[1][2][3]. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216212047.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216212047.h... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-30494009 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-30494009 [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/weight-loss-fat-cells-what-happens-burned-scientist-explanation-carbon-dioxide-water-urine-a8258941.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...

RobertRoberts 7y ago
>How do you think you tested for water loss? Over time. I was not dehydrated at the end of the month, but I was 15+ 1bs lighter, and my neck, waist and limbs were slimmer. >do you really think you're the first person to research this? Nope, I have no such illusions. I find though that science _requires_ discussion to move forward. And I found a phenomenon. I can't explain the details, but the results are sound. I think it's simple to test my theory. Stay up all night, don't drink anything, do what you normally do. In the morning, you will not have lost any weight (call it water weight if you want). During sleep, your body does something different. Go take a nap, when you wake you will urinate again, but it will be different. But maybe you can only understand this difference if you are carefully monitoring your weight over an extended period of time? The reason I don't think the carbon dioxide thing is the primary method of weight loss is because of my tests, where your body weight simply does not normalize until after sleeping. I think the majority of the fat (by weight) comes out in urine. But I am just guessing based on my experiments over the past few years. Yep, I am an amateur scientist, but I control my weight now.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > Over time. I was not dehydrated at the end of the month, but I was 15+ 1bs lighter, and my neck, waist and limbs were slimmer. That establishes what month you lost fat in. It does not establish what time of day you lost fat in. It does not establish that you lost fat through your urine. I totally believe you that you lost weight in a month; I'm not objecting to to that claim. The claims you made that I am objecting to are: 1. That you know what time of day you lost weight in. 2. That you know you lost weight primarily through your urine. You did not control for water weight when testing either of these hypotheses. > I find though that science _requires_ discussion to move forward. No it doesn't. Discussion is sometimes helpful to the scientific method, but it is not a part of it. Science requires sound experimentation, which you have not done. > In the morning, you will not have lost any weight (call it water weight if you want). I don't need to stay up all night to demonstrate that I can lose weight while awake. I just got back from a run and had to go, so I urinated and lost 1.6 lbs according to measuring before and after on my bathroom scale. Since you've given me permission, I'll go ahead and call that water weight. > Go take a nap, when you wake you will urinate again, but it will be different. How will it be different? You've literally provided no explanation whatsoever for why you think there's fat mass in your urine. > But maybe you can only understand this difference if you are carefully monitoring your weight over an extended period of time? I have gathered my weight data almost every day for the last few months, to correlate with a weight training routine. Maybe I could understand the difference if you could explain it to me, but all you've done is just say there is a difference. > The reason I don't think the carbon dioxide thing is the primary method of weight loss is because of my tests, where your body weight simply does not normalize until after sleeping. What do you mean by normalize? > I think the majority of the fat (by weight) comes out in urine. Why do you think this? > But I am just guessing based on my experiments over the past few years. Yep, I am an amateur scientist, but I control my weight now. You don't get to call yourself even an amateur scientist if you refuse to even consider very obvious confounding factors. Science is about isolating phenomena, and if you haven't even measured the heaviest thing coming out of your body (water) then you can't claim to have isolated any information about lighter substances leaving your body. What you're doing is not science. I'm happy for you that you're controlling your weight, though. Good job.

kerkeslager 7y ago

A humorous conclusion we can draw from your posts is that if you're losing weight while you sleep and the weight comes out through urine, this must mean you urinate while you sleep. ;)

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Well, people are taking my statements wrong. I didn't mean to imply you "lose weight while you sleep", I meant to more clearly state "the fat you've already used, doesn't get expelled until you sleep". Again, a working theory to explain an observed effect.

UnFleshedOne 7y ago

Imagine that fat gets burned at the exact moment when you eat or drink anything. On your chart, even if it is realtime, you would see weight gain, then later during the day and night you pee and exhale little more than if that fat burn didn't happen. But that burn is say 1% of intake and it gets spread over few hours. Would your tracking method allow you to detect the moment of weight loss in this hypothetical scenario?

RobertRoberts 7y ago
I don't think so, I can't say for sure when fat is burned or anything like that. I agree that it has to be done while you are using energy during the day. Some people seem to be thinking that I am saying "fat only gets burned during sleep" which is just absurd, and I am not suggesting that at all. I think if I was to make a theory it would be something like "fat used up during the day produces waste that is partly stored in the body after being used, but during sleep is when this waste is collected and expelled in the urine." Maybe poorly worded but sums up my thinking right now. This is a rough guess, but since I haven't seen anything like this reported anywhere I figured it's worth sharing the experience.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > I think if I was to make a theory it would be something like "fat used up during the day produces waste that is partly stored in the body after being used, but during sleep is when this waste is collected and expelled in the urine." And how did you detect the fat waste in your urine? > This is a rough guess, but since I haven't seen anything like this reported anywhere I figured it's worth sharing the experience. The reason you didn't see anything like this reported anywhere is that it's not true. Experience is something I can't argue with. I can't argue, for example, that you lost weight. However, you've stepped well beyond just "reporting your experience" here. In what way did you "experience" expelling fat waste products through your urine? The answer is, you didn't--you experienced expelling water. You're not adding to our collective knowledge by reporting your subjective interpretations here. You're propagating misinformation.
  - 7y ago