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I'd argue that people who read 4 or 5 books on programming don't know much about anything either when they first start out. In fact, I'd argue that a graduate
by jshowa3 7y ago
I'd argue that people who read 4 or 5 books on programming don't know much about anything either when they first start out.
In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think. The problem is that it's usually general knowledge that doesn't apply to some specific framework that 90% of developers use. It's all abstracted away to learning X framework.
- soperj 7y agoSure, and that's pretty much what this guy was saying. How much does theory help you properly weld? Same way learning when to use bubblesort vs. quicksort helps me figure out why my css is working in firefox but not ie11.
- RHSeeger 7y agoKnowing how to judge the complexity of an algorithm (which is what learning about different sorts helped teach me) is useful to me in developing software on a regular basis. That includes javascript sometimes.
- brandmeyer 7y ago> How much does theory help you properly weld? A ton. The metallurgy of welding is complex. When performing a bespoke weld, you have to know what type of filler metal to use (it frequently is not identical to the pieces being welded...), heat pre-treatment, heat post-treatment, and range of available current for the job. All of those factors vary with the job. While the reference texts can help you, you have to at least know enough to figure out where to look. Then you need to have enough practice to to recognize when things go wrong, and how to correct it. Much as in the current programming industry, the problem is people coming out with an education on paper, yet not actually knowing either the theory or practice the of welding.
- mieseratte 7y ago> I'd argue that people who read 4 or 5 books on programming don't know much about anything either when they first start out. I would say that's a function of a lot of complex items, including their prior educational experience, general intelligence, and just how closely they read the book. There exist many books I've "read" once and mostly forgotten, and precious few I've read a half-dozen or more times and know intimately. If the former, I agree with you. If the latter, not so much. > In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think. In my experience there are two kinds of graduates, those who spent years memorizing material to get a piece of paper, and those who learned how to learn and applied it to get their piece of paper. When folks talk about shit graduates they have the former in mind, when folks extol the virtues of a university education they are thinking of the latter. Unfortunately universities spit out both and it's very hard to distinguish on-the-fly.
- WalterBright 7y agoHN regularly has posts where people justify cheating their way through college. I can't help but think these are the ones who do poorly at their jobs, and then the "years memorizing material to get a piece of paper" gets blamed.
- jshowa3 7y agoOr people generally don't distinguish between good graduates and bad ones. In most discussion, the distinction boils down to "college graduates suck and don't know anything" to paraphrase. While granted there's obviously people who don't take college seriously, many do. And unfortunately, I'm one of those people that worked very hard to get through college and didn't attend hardly any social functions. Same as high school. I would spend weekends from 8am to 6pm reading textbooks and doing assignments. However, I often feel that doing this was somewhat of a detriment to both my ability to socialize and my ability to really solve problems organically.
- mntmoss 7y agoThe plight of the typical grad isn't just that they have overly general knowledge for any one task, but that they have just emerged from a system that filtered their thoughts for possibly several decades into completing assignments and taking tests for a grade. And once you get into industry you have to unlearn that because the clear objective goals and grades disappear, and you are left with an array of subtle values and more pernicuous consequences to any action. And that stuff is absolutely vital to being good at intellectual jobs - it's mostly crushed out by the system, fostering the "narrow STEMlord" mindset that is constantly surprised by things blowing up when they followed the book exactly.
- goatinaboat 7y agoThis was a real problem at my last employer, new grads couldn’t really tell the difference between coursework and actual work. And if it wasn’t up to standard thought they could plead with “the professor” (their boss) for a better “grade”.
- jshowa3 7y agoI was never this person and still struggled when I initially got into industry and still do. Part of it is because most businesses are run by people that have no knowledge of the timescale of their projects and therefore try to squeeze as much work as possible in ridiculous time frames and society trains you to stop "whining" and get it done. The lack of empathy in industry is enormous due to profit motive. And because of the ambiguous nature of software, it's always difficult to know exactly what needs to be done. And because most people want to please their bosses, the incentive to estimate low and push yourself to get a project done is very real.
- snowwrestler 7y ago> once you get into industry you have to unlearn that because the clear objective goals and grades disappear, and you are left with an array of subtle values and more pernicuous consequences to any action Which is one reason I continue to think that a broad education, including humanities and social sciences, is valuable even for folks looking to work in STEM fields. It's in those academic disciplines that you learn to work with subtle nuances, and how to originate and defend an opinion or point of view.
- mruts 7y agoI dunno, a guy who read all of TAOCP and did all the exercises is probably a better programmer than you would ever be (me too probably).
- mncolinlee 7y agoNo one knows a lot when they first start out. However, there's a lot of value in learning new skills by doing. It's the main skill programmers need to succeed in their jobs. No one becomes a great programmer by taking a new college class for each new API.
- Consultant32452 7y agoI think the "learning to learn" thing is a myth propagated by people raking in tons of money. I'm sure it happens, but I personally did not meet a single person who "learned to learn" while in college beyond some very basic studying techniques that could be picked up from watching a couple of Youtube videos.
- pas 7y agoHm, at least college exams required some serious effort. And learning that comes handy when you are faced with big challenges at work. (Eg to design, understand, debug a big complex system.) What they don't teach is team/project work. Though if there were more emphasis on hard math/CS/programming/ITsec problem solving, that'd probably translate well to industry setting.