4 ms·

I used to be non-vegetarian until two years back. Today it's difficult to imagine sentient animals being separated from their families and taken to be slaughter

by jeswin 7y ago

I used to be non-vegetarian until two years back. Today it's difficult to imagine sentient animals being separated from their families and taken to be slaughtered. There really is no excuse for this cruelty.

weregiraffe 7y ago
>Today it's difficult to imagine sentient animals being separated from their families and taken to be slaughtered. There really is no excuse for this cruelty. What is your opinion about predators in the wild, murdering and eating sentient animals?
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  I'm not quite a vegetarian, but I understand where OP is coming from. There's a very significant difference between animals behaving like animals and humans treating animals like elements of a factory production line, to be mechanically separated from their lives and "processed." We have no control over what animals do, and part of being a good steward of nature is allowing animals to be animals. But as a human, it's difficult for me to accept that the intensive factory farming of chickens, cows, and pigs is necessary for my welfare. And since I'm aware of other protein sources than meat, I feel that I have a duty to use those protein sources instead of meat. And if I can't use plant proteins, then I also have a duty to minimize the amount of animal protein that I consume, and to ensure that it doesn't end the life of the animal where I can. This doesn't preclude me from hunting or from eating hunted meat if I need to, but hunting is very different from factory farming. My prey has a fighting chance. Rabbits, deer, bears, elk, mountain lions, etc. all have evolved in an environment where they may be hunted. They all have tools at their disposal to counteract my cunning. And to hunt a wild animal also means that I have to butcher the animal myself, meaning that I come face-to-face with the fact that I've ended an animal's life to stay alive.
  - vharuck 7y ago
    >My prey has a fighting chance. Rabbits, deer, bears, elk, mountain lions, etc. all have evolved in an environment where they may be hunted. They all have tools at their disposal to counteract my cunning. Where do you draw the line of what's sporting? I think humanity's cunning is why we have domesticated animals and efficient slaughter houses. >And to hunt a wild animal also means that I have to butcher the animal myself, meaning that I come face-to-face with the fact that I've ended an animal's life to stay alive. I'd bet every slaughtered animal had a person watch it die. Or at least see it alive and know they'd be complicit in the slaughter.
    - jschwartzi 7y ago
      > Where do you draw the line of what's sporting? I think humanity's cunning is why we have domesticated animals and efficient slaughter houses. I think it's when I'm having to do the work against the animal to catch it that's sporting. Driving to the grocery store and buying pre-packaged chunks of muscle isn't particularly sporting. It's not really cunning to stick 3000 chickens in a dark room, dump food on the floor periodically, and then vaccuum them all up after X months. It's industrial. > I'd bet every slaughtered animal had a person watch it die. Or at least see it alive and know they'd be complicit in the slaughter. This is true, but it's much easier to be complicit in something when it's as impersonal as watching as chickens which are hung from a gantry conveyor slowly make their way past a set of spinning blades which efficiently separate their head from their neck, and you're watching this process for hours a day.
- colanderman 7y ago
  As humans, we have the means (in most, though not all, parts of the world) to thrive on a vegan diet, and ethical frameworks to understand the implications of our diet. Those traits distinguish us from almost certainly every other predator on the planet. We therefore cannot project our ethical obligations onto them.
  - vharuck 7y ago
    But what if the life of an animal is better when raised for slaughter than in the wild? This isn't true for all farms, of course, but what about the animals raised with plenty of food, space to roam, and others of their species to socialize with? It's tempting to say "Killing is always wrong," but the meat industry is more than just the moment of slaughter.
    - sterkekoffie 7y ago
      Animals are not captured from the wild and brought to farms. They're produced on farms in highly industrialized breeding operations. The alternative to a farm animal living in captivity is not for the animal to live in the wild, it's for the animal to not live--that is, to have not been bred by humans--in the first place.
- landonxjames 7y ago
  This seems to be kind of a silly point. I don't think anyone would argue that predators should be held to the same moral standards as human beings.
tsimionescu 7y ago
Wait till you hear what happens to these same animals in the woods! I don't mean to be dismissive, and I do believe that there are legitimate ethical and environmental (and maybe even health-related) motivations for being a vegetarian. However, I don't see a problem with the slaughter itself, especially as practiced in modern societies. It is significantly more humane than most ways a lot of animals die in the wild, killed in a desparte struggle, or eaten away by disease. The much bigger ethical problem is the way we force most of these animals to live in industrial settings, cooped up, filthy, unmoving. This is the true ethical dilemma of industrial farming. Hopefully, if we stopped eating and throwing away the vast quantities of meat we do today, we could get back to more sustainable and more humane animal husbandry, while still being able to occasionally enjoy meat - to boot, it will even be much better tasting, if the animals are allowed to roam and eat grass.
- strict9 7y ago
  >Wait till you hear what happens to these same animals in the woods! A mostly instant death for most mammals in the woods is not in the same solar system as an industrial slaughterhouse in terms or experience for the animal. And this is why I don't eat meat. If it were truly a stress-free and near-instant experience my opinions would be different.
  - judah 7y ago
    >> "mostly instant death" Afraid you're mistaken. See /r/natureismetal [0] -- or any nature documentary, for that matter -- and you'll see many animals are eaten while still alive. Predators tend to do the bare minimum to subdue their prey before devouring it. See how this eagle eats its prey [1], for example. This is true of lions and wildebeest, sea lions and penguins, alligators and zebra, snakes with frogs, frogs with insects, and more. The prey is devoured while still alive. [0]: http://reddit.com/r/natureismetal http://reddit.com/r/natureismetal [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Natureisbrutal/comments/d3hgka/snake_eagle_gutting_a_snake/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Natureisbrutal/comments/d3hgka/snak...
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    > A mostly instant death for most mammals in the woods What woods are you hanging out in? Most animals I see get eaten are drowned, asphyxiated, bled out, poisoned, or just plain eaten alive. Some animals (raptors, cats) kill for sport, or to defend territory. I agree that the way animals are treated by humans is disturbing and should be fixed, but an animal's life and death is tough even in nature. We should focus more on their quality of life, but death is death. (Incidentally, a calmer/quicker death creates more flavorful meat, so there's plenty of reason to be more humane)

by jeswin 7y ago

weregiraffe 7y ago

>Today it's difficult to imagine sentient animals being separated from their families and taken to be slaughtered. There really is no excuse for this cruelty. What is your opinion about predators in the wild, murdering and eating sentient animals?

jschwartzi 7y ago
I'm not quite a vegetarian, but I understand where OP is coming from. There's a very significant difference between animals behaving like animals and humans treating animals like elements of a factory production line, to be mechanically separated from their lives and "processed." We have no control over what animals do, and part of being a good steward of nature is allowing animals to be animals. But as a human, it's difficult for me to accept that the intensive factory farming of chickens, cows, and pigs is necessary for my welfare. And since I'm aware of other protein sources than meat, I feel that I have a duty to use those protein sources instead of meat. And if I can't use plant proteins, then I also have a duty to minimize the amount of animal protein that I consume, and to ensure that it doesn't end the life of the animal where I can. This doesn't preclude me from hunting or from eating hunted meat if I need to, but hunting is very different from factory farming. My prey has a fighting chance. Rabbits, deer, bears, elk, mountain lions, etc. all have evolved in an environment where they may be hunted. They all have tools at their disposal to counteract my cunning. And to hunt a wild animal also means that I have to butcher the animal myself, meaning that I come face-to-face with the fact that I've ended an animal's life to stay alive.
- vharuck 7y ago
  >My prey has a fighting chance. Rabbits, deer, bears, elk, mountain lions, etc. all have evolved in an environment where they may be hunted. They all have tools at their disposal to counteract my cunning. Where do you draw the line of what's sporting? I think humanity's cunning is why we have domesticated animals and efficient slaughter houses. >And to hunt a wild animal also means that I have to butcher the animal myself, meaning that I come face-to-face with the fact that I've ended an animal's life to stay alive. I'd bet every slaughtered animal had a person watch it die. Or at least see it alive and know they'd be complicit in the slaughter.
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    > Where do you draw the line of what's sporting? I think humanity's cunning is why we have domesticated animals and efficient slaughter houses. I think it's when I'm having to do the work against the animal to catch it that's sporting. Driving to the grocery store and buying pre-packaged chunks of muscle isn't particularly sporting. It's not really cunning to stick 3000 chickens in a dark room, dump food on the floor periodically, and then vaccuum them all up after X months. It's industrial. > I'd bet every slaughtered animal had a person watch it die. Or at least see it alive and know they'd be complicit in the slaughter. This is true, but it's much easier to be complicit in something when it's as impersonal as watching as chickens which are hung from a gantry conveyor slowly make their way past a set of spinning blades which efficiently separate their head from their neck, and you're watching this process for hours a day.
colanderman 7y ago
As humans, we have the means (in most, though not all, parts of the world) to thrive on a vegan diet, and ethical frameworks to understand the implications of our diet. Those traits distinguish us from almost certainly every other predator on the planet. We therefore cannot project our ethical obligations onto them.
- vharuck 7y ago
  But what if the life of an animal is better when raised for slaughter than in the wild? This isn't true for all farms, of course, but what about the animals raised with plenty of food, space to roam, and others of their species to socialize with? It's tempting to say "Killing is always wrong," but the meat industry is more than just the moment of slaughter.
  - sterkekoffie 7y ago
    Animals are not captured from the wild and brought to farms. They're produced on farms in highly industrialized breeding operations. The alternative to a farm animal living in captivity is not for the animal to live in the wild, it's for the animal to not live--that is, to have not been bred by humans--in the first place.
landonxjames 7y ago
This seems to be kind of a silly point. I don't think anyone would argue that predators should be held to the same moral standards as human beings.

tsimionescu 7y ago

Wait till you hear what happens to these same animals in the woods! I don't mean to be dismissive, and I do believe that there are legitimate ethical and environmental (and maybe even health-related) motivations for being a vegetarian. However, I don't see a problem with the slaughter itself, especially as practiced in modern societies. It is significantly more humane than most ways a lot of animals die in the wild, killed in a desparte struggle, or eaten away by disease. The much bigger ethical problem is the way we force most of these animals to live in industrial settings, cooped up, filthy, unmoving. This is the true ethical dilemma of industrial farming. Hopefully, if we stopped eating and throwing away the vast quantities of meat we do today, we could get back to more sustainable and more humane animal husbandry, while still being able to occasionally enjoy meat - to boot, it will even be much better tasting, if the animals are allowed to roam and eat grass.

strict9 7y ago
>Wait till you hear what happens to these same animals in the woods! A mostly instant death for most mammals in the woods is not in the same solar system as an industrial slaughterhouse in terms or experience for the animal. And this is why I don't eat meat. If it were truly a stress-free and near-instant experience my opinions would be different.
- judah 7y ago
  >> "mostly instant death" Afraid you're mistaken. See /r/natureismetal [0] -- or any nature documentary, for that matter -- and you'll see many animals are eaten while still alive. Predators tend to do the bare minimum to subdue their prey before devouring it. See how this eagle eats its prey [1], for example. This is true of lions and wildebeest, sea lions and penguins, alligators and zebra, snakes with frogs, frogs with insects, and more. The prey is devoured while still alive. [0]: http://reddit.com/r/natureismetal http://reddit.com/r/natureismetal [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Natureisbrutal/comments/d3hgka/snake_eagle_gutting_a_snake/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Natureisbrutal/comments/d3hgka/snak...
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  > A mostly instant death for most mammals in the woods What woods are you hanging out in? Most animals I see get eaten are drowned, asphyxiated, bled out, poisoned, or just plain eaten alive. Some animals (raptors, cats) kill for sport, or to defend territory. I agree that the way animals are treated by humans is disturbing and should be fixed, but an animal's life and death is tough even in nature. We should focus more on their quality of life, but death is death. (Incidentally, a calmer/quicker death creates more flavorful meat, so there's plenty of reason to be more humane)