5 ms·

I am not at the point where I care about a "beautiful" Linux on a laptop, I'd be happy with twm and Motif widgets if only the hardware would be 100% supported a

by tga 7y ago

I am not at the point where I care about a "beautiful" Linux on a laptop, I'd be happy with twm and Motif widgets if only the hardware would be 100% supported and everything would work. For a reference point, a vanilla Ubuntu LTS install on random (non-certified) T-series ThinkPads still doesn't always suspend/wake up properly, doesn't hibernate properly, crashes X when used with a docking station, has issues with Bluetooth headsets (no microphone), has issues selecting the output audio device, doesn't support the fingerprint reader (I think), has hiccups with external screens, and altogether less battery life than in Windows. (I'm sure some of these work on other models and others have workarounds, this is just my recent experience with trying to run Linux without spending time on tweaks). I would seriously consider switching my work machine to any laptop/distro combination that would get closer to the experience one has on MacOS (not perfect, but close enough to be productive), no matter where it was made.

mikekchar 7y ago
I've been using Toshiba for the past 10 years. At one point, they ensured that every single model they made worked with Linux (although some needed some extra drivers). I suspect that is no longer the case, but I've still had good success. I'm in Japan, so I buy Japanese models. I'm just about to buy a GZ73-JL (PGZ73JL-NNB to be precise). I expect it to work out of the box with Arch Linux. If it doesn't, I'll feel terrible about posting this :-) The PV63PSP-KHA that I've been using for the last 5 years has been practically flawless. However, there are some caveats wrt the issue mention. Bluetooth is a tyre fire as far as I can tell. Some devices will work fine and some won't. The problem is mainly that most devices don't implement the standard. They only implement enough to work on Windows and/or Mac. On top of that, I'm sad to say that the Linux Bluetooth code is really hard to work with -- I've tried to debug non-working equipment (hey -- I've got source code!) and it's not fun. I've never tried, but it seems that some fingerprint readers will not work on Linux. That's because they encrypt their output and they don't offer Linux drivers -- so there is no way to support them. I don't know which ones work and which don't. Battery life is not bad on Linux if you have an Intel box and you use powertop. Powertop is a utility made by Intel for setting the battery settings optimally for your machine. You need to run it as root, go to the adjustment section and set everything to "Good". Normally that will be fine, but because there is a variety of different hardware out there, sometimes you can have some stability issues, so it's a good idea to manually set it when you boot up for the first few times until you can make sure there are no problems. Then you can save the settings and they will be set like that permanently. Personally, I don't like Ubuntu any more -- I find the extra effort setting up Arch is worth the hassle. It's really only ever done once, especially since it's a rolling distro. I find that Ubuntu makes a lot of assumptions about what you are going to want and usually those assumptions are poor in my case. Many of my colleagues disagree. Speaking of colleagues, several of them use Dell XPS 13 machines and have similarly little problems, so I can recommend that as well.
- webgoat 7y ago
  I use a Toshiba portege x20w and have very little issues as well for basic drivers, but any more specific hardware (windows hello, convertible laptop features, etc) tend not to work out of the box. Still much less of a hassle to setup than some laptop brands but definitely not Linux certified.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    I think this is the thing that confuses people. I don't expect things like Windows Hello (facial recognition system for login) or convertible laptop features to ever work on Linux. I'm pretty careful not to spend extra money on a machine with those kinds of features. It seems like common sense to me, but that's really just because I have a pretty good idea of what Linux supports and what it doesn't.
casenjo 7y ago
Can confirm, the fingerprint reader is apparently a huuuge pain to set up. I had found an article on how to set it up and it was requiring me to boot into Windows to do the initial set up and then go to Ubuntu to be able to use it. I just went for a stronger password instead.
billfruit 7y ago
I thought in recent years the Linux device driver situation has much improved, and I think perhaps the vanilla Linux kernel has more drivers bundled in than the stock windows. Of course the GPU drivers are a bit troublesome to get the hardware acceleration working, but basic video I find gets set up without issue.
diffeomorphism 7y ago
Ubuntu certifies most Thinkpads: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/models?vendors=Lenovo&page=4 https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/models?vendors=Leno... I currently have an X1 Yoga (3rd), where Lenovo messed up modern standby on both windows and linux. Luckily they have since added standard S3 as an option in the UEFI settings. Everything else works out of the box except the fingerprint reader. Battery life is comparable. > I would seriously consider switching my work machine to any laptop/distro combination that would get closer to the experience one has on MacOS In my experience hackintoshes are pretty annoying and quite far from "close enough to be productive" out of the box. Or were you comparing with a laptop where your OS of choice is preinstalled? Then "without spending time on tweaks" is trivially true; someone else did that for you already.
- tga 7y ago
  To clarify, I was talking about the experience you get using MacOS on a Mac, definitely not a Hackintosh. Of course this is due to Apple (in most part) fully supporting all (their) hardware.

by tga 7y ago

mikekchar 7y ago

I've been using Toshiba for the past 10 years. At one point, they ensured that every single model they made worked with Linux (although some needed some extra drivers). I suspect that is no longer the case, but I've still had good success. I'm in Japan, so I buy Japanese models. I'm just about to buy a GZ73-JL (PGZ73JL-NNB to be precise). I expect it to work out of the box with Arch Linux. If it doesn't, I'll feel terrible about posting this :-) The PV63PSP-KHA that I've been using for the last 5 years has been practically flawless. However, there are some caveats wrt the issue mention. Bluetooth is a tyre fire as far as I can tell. Some devices will work fine and some won't. The problem is mainly that most devices don't implement the standard. They only implement enough to work on Windows and/or Mac. On top of that, I'm sad to say that the Linux Bluetooth code is really hard to work with -- I've tried to debug non-working equipment (hey -- I've got source code!) and it's not fun. I've never tried, but it seems that some fingerprint readers will not work on Linux. That's because they encrypt their output and they don't offer Linux drivers -- so there is no way to support them. I don't know which ones work and which don't. Battery life is not bad on Linux if you have an Intel box and you use powertop. Powertop is a utility made by Intel for setting the battery settings optimally for your machine. You need to run it as root, go to the adjustment section and set everything to "Good". Normally that will be fine, but because there is a variety of different hardware out there, sometimes you can have some stability issues, so it's a good idea to manually set it when you boot up for the first few times until you can make sure there are no problems. Then you can save the settings and they will be set like that permanently. Personally, I don't like Ubuntu any more -- I find the extra effort setting up Arch is worth the hassle. It's really only ever done once, especially since it's a rolling distro. I find that Ubuntu makes a lot of assumptions about what you are going to want and usually those assumptions are poor in my case. Many of my colleagues disagree. Speaking of colleagues, several of them use Dell XPS 13 machines and have similarly little problems, so I can recommend that as well.

webgoat 7y ago
I use a Toshiba portege x20w and have very little issues as well for basic drivers, but any more specific hardware (windows hello, convertible laptop features, etc) tend not to work out of the box. Still much less of a hassle to setup than some laptop brands but definitely not Linux certified.
- mikekchar 7y ago
  I think this is the thing that confuses people. I don't expect things like Windows Hello (facial recognition system for login) or convertible laptop features to ever work on Linux. I'm pretty careful not to spend extra money on a machine with those kinds of features. It seems like common sense to me, but that's really just because I have a pretty good idea of what Linux supports and what it doesn't.

casenjo 7y ago

Can confirm, the fingerprint reader is apparently a huuuge pain to set up. I had found an article on how to set it up and it was requiring me to boot into Windows to do the initial set up and then go to Ubuntu to be able to use it. I just went for a stronger password instead.

billfruit 7y ago

I thought in recent years the Linux device driver situation has much improved, and I think perhaps the vanilla Linux kernel has more drivers bundled in than the stock windows. Of course the GPU drivers are a bit troublesome to get the hardware acceleration working, but basic video I find gets set up without issue.

diffeomorphism 7y ago

Ubuntu certifies most Thinkpads: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/models?vendors=Lenovo&page=4 https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/models?vendors=Leno... I currently have an X1 Yoga (3rd), where Lenovo messed up modern standby on both windows and linux. Luckily they have since added standard S3 as an option in the UEFI settings. Everything else works out of the box except the fingerprint reader. Battery life is comparable. > I would seriously consider switching my work machine to any laptop/distro combination that would get closer to the experience one has on MacOS In my experience hackintoshes are pretty annoying and quite far from "close enough to be productive" out of the box. Or were you comparing with a laptop where your OS of choice is preinstalled? Then "without spending time on tweaks" is trivially true; someone else did that for you already.

tga 7y ago
To clarify, I was talking about the experience you get using MacOS on a Mac, definitely not a Hackintosh. Of course this is due to Apple (in most part) fully supporting all (their) hardware.