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I've no problem consuming Chinese consumables, but software is another issue. If some software from the US or EU was up to no good, I can use the law to bring

I've no problem consuming Chinese consumables, but software is another issue. If some software from the US or EU was up to no good, I can use the law to bring them to court. In China, I'd first need to ask myself, if not maybe the lawmakers themselves requested the software to do no good. EDIT: The same could also be said for US/EU governments, yes, but it is more subtle here (i.e. they label you a criminal/terrorist to legitimate installing e.g. a trojan on your PC, whereas, if I'm not mistaken, in China they could just make it a law to have trojans installed on every PC), so I still feel like the law somewhat protects my rights.

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
You seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency side channel of society and power.[a] > I can use the law to bring them to court. I wouldn't be so certain of that. There are two issues with this: 1. The no good would have to be illegal either in the civil sense for you to take them to court, or illegal in the criminal or regulatory sense for government to act. Obviously not all no good is codified in law. 2. Law is necessarily high latency - it requires the no good to have already taken place in order for action to be taken against the doers of no good > i.e. they label you a criminal/terrorist to legitimate installing e.g. a trojan on your PC This has its own issues: 1. the terrorist label will be applied unilaterally: no one is going to come and ask you if you're a terrorist before you get closer scrutiny. 2. It would be a mistake to think some form of constitution is going to help, in the long run. Laws can be changed. Even the US Constitution has amendments. We're all only ever a few unhinged politicians away from no good governance. a. This quote was taken from @revelation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6033481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6033481
- klingonopera 7y ago
  Yes, quite true that me as an average individual basically stands no chance against the law in neither the US or EU, but big companies, powerful individuals, NGOs, the media or even a favorable judge can sway. Also, consider how much harder it is to change the constitution here compared to China. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that power is more balanced in the Western world compared to China, and I consider that a good thing. ...but it does have its faults too, e.g. I find it appalling how slow politics, the economy and citizens react to the impending climate disaster. And yet, I'd still pick this world in which we'd have to fight each other over water and oxygen to a world run by totalitarian governments. And I hope I am exaggerating...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    > but big companies, powerful individuals, NGOs, the media or even a favorable judge can sway I'm going to agree with your wider point that power does appear to be more balanced in the West than China, at least until such times as a few more unhinged politicians have their way, but I also want to point out that... The world over, big companies, powerful individuals, and the media, have much closer ties to government than you and I ever will.
    - klingonopera 7y ago
      Yes, true, but we have to hope that there are always at least two companies/individuals/media outlets, both with close ties to the government, but opposed to each other.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      Do we really need to discuss whether a democracy, with an elected parliament and leaders, seperation of legislative/executive/judicative power, etc. has more power balance?
      - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
        Yes, we do. Because if we don’t continually reflect on that balance of power, and the civil society institutions necessary to support it, we will loss it.
lonelappde 7y ago
Chinese consumables have an occasional problem of replacing content with toxic counterfeits.

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

You seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency side channel of society and power.[a] > I can use the law to bring them to court. I wouldn't be so certain of that. There are two issues with this: 1. The no good would have to be illegal either in the civil sense for you to take them to court, or illegal in the criminal or regulatory sense for government to act. Obviously not all no good is codified in law. 2. Law is necessarily high latency - it requires the no good to have already taken place in order for action to be taken against the doers of no good > i.e. they label you a criminal/terrorist to legitimate installing e.g. a trojan on your PC This has its own issues: 1. the terrorist label will be applied unilaterally: no one is going to come and ask you if you're a terrorist before you get closer scrutiny. 2. It would be a mistake to think some form of constitution is going to help, in the long run. Laws can be changed. Even the US Constitution has amendments. We're all only ever a few unhinged politicians away from no good governance. a. This quote was taken from @revelation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6033481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6033481

klingonopera 7y ago
Yes, quite true that me as an average individual basically stands no chance against the law in neither the US or EU, but big companies, powerful individuals, NGOs, the media or even a favorable judge can sway. Also, consider how much harder it is to change the constitution here compared to China. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that power is more balanced in the Western world compared to China, and I consider that a good thing. ...but it does have its faults too, e.g. I find it appalling how slow politics, the economy and citizens react to the impending climate disaster. And yet, I'd still pick this world in which we'd have to fight each other over water and oxygen to a world run by totalitarian governments. And I hope I am exaggerating...
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  > but big companies, powerful individuals, NGOs, the media or even a favorable judge can sway I'm going to agree with your wider point that power does appear to be more balanced in the West than China, at least until such times as a few more unhinged politicians have their way, but I also want to point out that... The world over, big companies, powerful individuals, and the media, have much closer ties to government than you and I ever will.
  - klingonopera 7y ago
    Yes, true, but we have to hope that there are always at least two companies/individuals/media outlets, both with close ties to the government, but opposed to each other.
  - tannhaeuser 7y ago
    Do we really need to discuss whether a democracy, with an elected parliament and leaders, seperation of legislative/executive/judicative power, etc. has more power balance?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      Yes, we do. Because if we don’t continually reflect on that balance of power, and the civil society institutions necessary to support it, we will loss it.

lonelappde 7y ago

Chinese consumables have an occasional problem of replacing content with toxic counterfeits.