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>Tying the salary to the cost of living looks like a way to cheat a worker out of the value they generate. Where do you think profits come from? Profit is the

>Tying the salary to the cost of living looks like a way to cheat a worker out of the value they generate. Where do you think profits come from? Profit is the difference between what you pay your workers and the value of their work.

oAlbe 7y ago
That's not the point though. Having an honest relationship with your employees and treating everybody fairly doesn't prevent you from profiting. It think this point is explained really well in the article: why should someone who lives in a city with a high cost of living be paid more than someone who lives in a low cost of living one? Effectively, what you are doing is giving the person in, say, SF, more money to be able to afford a better lifestyle than the person in rural Ohio (to use the same example of the article). Why is that fair? And also, if that is fair, then is me moving to live on a yacht in Montecarlo a reason for the company to pay me 500k a year to afford that lifestyle? Workers should be paid fairly. And to do that you have to pay everybody the highest salary you are paying for that position. I think Stackoverflow does that now, I remember reading an article on their blog about it.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  A reason I was told is that if you pay the same rate everywhere then someone in a 3rd world country could hate the job and be not very motivated but won't quit because it pays more than any other job.
  - spurdoman77 7y ago
    I can tell you these unhappy unmotivated overpaid people are everywhere. It is fairly easy to overcompensate and it can be quite a problem.
- spurdoman77 7y ago
  But as an employer, why I should strive for honestness? Does it bring me more profit? To me it sounds like paying too much. I pay market rates which doesnt consider cost of living or value produced, but the the average salary for the skillset/experience.
  - idiocratic 7y ago
    It brings value in the long run and makes retention easier. If I work for a company who pays differently based on location, I'll soon be searching for a company that pays the same based on level of seniority or other internal criteria.
    - spurdoman77 7y ago
      I dont really buy that argument. Local developers are not going to quit because you are paying remote developers less. Location is substantial factor in salary, and almost everyone seems to understand that. Onsite developers are paid generally substantially more.
  - oAlbe 7y ago
    > But as an employer, why I should strive for honestness? In an ideal world, you would because you would care for people. If not everybody, at least the people around you. As an employer, you are hiring people who will spend the majority of their waking hours working for you, with you, at your company. In theory, you would care if they are happy or not, motivated or not, paid fairly or not. You would care if they can afford that visit to the doctor they need, if they are taking enough breaks, enough time off. Ideally, you would keep an eye on your employees to make sure nobody is overdoing, to watch out for for employees whose performance is going down and figure out if they are getting burnt out or what's actually going on. All those things would pay back in the end. Happy employees do better works. Burnt out employees don't. Recovering from that is hard, and even though you can say "who cares, I'll fire them and hire someone else", there's still the fact that the hiring process is expensive. In an idea world though. But I guess I do understand that for many people the only thing that matters is squeezing as much money for their business out of society as they can get away with. Though, this becomes a somewhat philosophical discussion at this point, and I think that's beside the point.
    - cyborgx7 7y ago
      If people were driven because they care about other/all people rather than about their own material benefit, we wouldn't have designed a system based on the profit motive in the first place. Because it wouldn't have motivated people.
- tdfx 7y ago
  Workers should not be expected to be paid "fairly" or according to some broader social expectation. The company is not your friend and you are not the company's friend. They are paying you for sacrificing your time for their benefit. You are worth exactly the minimum that you're willing to accept in payment based on your individual circumstances.
  - gjulianm 7y ago
    "Expecting" is not the same as hoping that things would change. > You are worth exactly the minimum that you're willing to accept in payment based on your individual circumstances This is what I would like to change. There's an asymmetry of power in employment (if you lose an employee it's just a nuisance, if a person loses employment it can destroy their life) that is exploited by business and it can lead to terrible situations, such as people that are generating value for a company that posts heavy benefits but in return they don't even get a living wage.
    - tdfx 7y ago
      > such as people that are generating value for a company Attempting to quantify this is exactly why we're in the situation that we are. If it was easy to quantify a person's "value" to the company relative to other workers, perhaps we would live in a different world. But it's not as simple as "salesman X received Y sales this month, 20% of that is Z". Who determines the hidden value of the marketing effort? How much of that should be allocated to the engineers who build and maintain the product? What about the people who find the talent to hire? Who would want to clean the toilets if the janitor wasn't here? After that kind of thought experiment it becomes abundantly clear that there's no meaningfully objective way to quantify a worker's value as a percentage of company profit. Each person's perspective will color their estimation of a particular worker's value. An objectively bad solution. The present way of doing things is not a result of any attempt at fairness or idealogical belief in the equality of man, it's really just the simplest working solution to the problem that anyone has been able to demonstrate.
      - gjulianm 7y ago
dustinmoris 7y ago
No value comes from many different reasons and one of those is a new value generated from the combination of efforts of many individual contributors. The individual value which someone brings doesn't equal the end value which is being delivered to a customer. The essence of a business is generating new value to end consumers which an individual couldn't do on their own.
- cyborgx7 7y ago
  The extra value generated from the combination of efforts is still generated by the workers who combined their effort to generate it. Why are the owners more deserving of that "extra value" than the workers?
  - spurdoman77 7y ago
    The owners started the business, took the risk, etc. If an employee isnt happy with the salary, he can always ask for more, change employer, or start his own business. It is a fair game IMO.
    - cyborgx7 7y ago
      So he can start his own business, with no capital of their own, so at an inherent disadvantage, or sell their work under value to someone else. This world view only works if you only see people as atomized units and have no sense of a concept of class. And even then it barely works.
    - claudiawerner 7y ago
      >The owners started the business, took the risk, etc. This does not seem like any kind of justification for continual reward, not to mention it doesn't apply at all in situations where the workers themselves take on a lot of risk day to day (e.g. construction). Furthermore, this would only work as a justification for when the owner really did take a risk, and companies where the current owner is the same as the person who started the business (i.e it's not clear that future CEOs shoulder the same risk). And of course, all of this is based on the idea that risk is an inherent good and worthy of reward and praise - I can see many cases where it's not, especially in very exploitative businesses. >he can always ask for more He can ask for it, but with the weakened power of collective bargaining it's unlikely he'll get it. It also depends on how replaceable the worker is. Did you see the article on HN today about how Kickstarter fired two union organizers? >change employer From the point of view of the worker this doesn't help much at all, since there would be no reason they'd necessarily get a better wage at other places. >or start his own business With what capital? Even if he had capital, why would a worker who is so disillusioned with the nature of wage work feel compelled to start a business? Unless he doesn't care for the plight of others against what he experienced while he was himself a wage worker.
onion2k 7y ago
Where do you think profits come from? Profit is the difference between what you pay your workers and the value of their work. I don't think the OP is refuting that. Paying someone 50% of the value they generate is fine. That's how businesses work. Paying someone 2% of the value they generate because they live in <place with a low cost of living> is much less easy to justify.
- cyborgx7 7y ago
  It's trivial to justify. Companies exist to maximize profit. You make more profit by paying your employees less. Also, plenty of people in my responses are denying that this is what profit is.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    It is still inhumane. There are other ways of running businesses, but rarely tried as they are typically squashed by bankers or VCs not providing financing. Examples include directly hiring trade unions, cooperatives, associations...
    - cyborgx7 7y ago
      Yes, a society organized around the profit motive is inhumane. That is the point I was making.
gjulianm 7y ago
I am not that naive, thanks. One can understand that you generate X value in part due to your own skill and time, in part due to the company environment. You get a percentage of that value as a salary, the other part goes to the company as profit in a more or less fair partition. But if another developer receives less for the same work you're definitely making it unfair and taking advantage of the fact that the business has more negotiating power than the employee. That's why I say it's cheating and dishonest.
jacknews 7y ago
indeed, in some ways 'profit' is tantamount to 'cheating the people who made that profit (employees) out of their fair share' - certainly when it comes to many big tech companies.

oAlbe 7y ago

That's not the point though. Having an honest relationship with your employees and treating everybody fairly doesn't prevent you from profiting. It think this point is explained really well in the article: why should someone who lives in a city with a high cost of living be paid more than someone who lives in a low cost of living one? Effectively, what you are doing is giving the person in, say, SF, more money to be able to afford a better lifestyle than the person in rural Ohio (to use the same example of the article). Why is that fair? And also, if that is fair, then is me moving to live on a yacht in Montecarlo a reason for the company to pay me 500k a year to afford that lifestyle? Workers should be paid fairly. And to do that you have to pay everybody the highest salary you are paying for that position. I think Stackoverflow does that now, I remember reading an article on their blog about it.

jdnenej 7y ago
A reason I was told is that if you pay the same rate everywhere then someone in a 3rd world country could hate the job and be not very motivated but won't quit because it pays more than any other job.
- spurdoman77 7y ago
  I can tell you these unhappy unmotivated overpaid people are everywhere. It is fairly easy to overcompensate and it can be quite a problem.
spurdoman77 7y ago
But as an employer, why I should strive for honestness? Does it bring me more profit? To me it sounds like paying too much. I pay market rates which doesnt consider cost of living or value produced, but the the average salary for the skillset/experience.
- idiocratic 7y ago
  It brings value in the long run and makes retention easier. If I work for a company who pays differently based on location, I'll soon be searching for a company that pays the same based on level of seniority or other internal criteria.
  - spurdoman77 7y ago
    I dont really buy that argument. Local developers are not going to quit because you are paying remote developers less. Location is substantial factor in salary, and almost everyone seems to understand that. Onsite developers are paid generally substantially more.
- oAlbe 7y ago
  > But as an employer, why I should strive for honestness? In an ideal world, you would because you would care for people. If not everybody, at least the people around you. As an employer, you are hiring people who will spend the majority of their waking hours working for you, with you, at your company. In theory, you would care if they are happy or not, motivated or not, paid fairly or not. You would care if they can afford that visit to the doctor they need, if they are taking enough breaks, enough time off. Ideally, you would keep an eye on your employees to make sure nobody is overdoing, to watch out for for employees whose performance is going down and figure out if they are getting burnt out or what's actually going on. All those things would pay back in the end. Happy employees do better works. Burnt out employees don't. Recovering from that is hard, and even though you can say "who cares, I'll fire them and hire someone else", there's still the fact that the hiring process is expensive. In an idea world though. But I guess I do understand that for many people the only thing that matters is squeezing as much money for their business out of society as they can get away with. Though, this becomes a somewhat philosophical discussion at this point, and I think that's beside the point.
  - cyborgx7 7y ago
    If people were driven because they care about other/all people rather than about their own material benefit, we wouldn't have designed a system based on the profit motive in the first place. Because it wouldn't have motivated people.
tdfx 7y ago
Workers should not be expected to be paid "fairly" or according to some broader social expectation. The company is not your friend and you are not the company's friend. They are paying you for sacrificing your time for their benefit. You are worth exactly the minimum that you're willing to accept in payment based on your individual circumstances.
- gjulianm 7y ago
  "Expecting" is not the same as hoping that things would change. > You are worth exactly the minimum that you're willing to accept in payment based on your individual circumstances This is what I would like to change. There's an asymmetry of power in employment (if you lose an employee it's just a nuisance, if a person loses employment it can destroy their life) that is exploited by business and it can lead to terrible situations, such as people that are generating value for a company that posts heavy benefits but in return they don't even get a living wage.
  - tdfx 7y ago
    > such as people that are generating value for a company Attempting to quantify this is exactly why we're in the situation that we are. If it was easy to quantify a person's "value" to the company relative to other workers, perhaps we would live in a different world. But it's not as simple as "salesman X received Y sales this month, 20% of that is Z". Who determines the hidden value of the marketing effort? How much of that should be allocated to the engineers who build and maintain the product? What about the people who find the talent to hire? Who would want to clean the toilets if the janitor wasn't here? After that kind of thought experiment it becomes abundantly clear that there's no meaningfully objective way to quantify a worker's value as a percentage of company profit. Each person's perspective will color their estimation of a particular worker's value. An objectively bad solution. The present way of doing things is not a result of any attempt at fairness or idealogical belief in the equality of man, it's really just the simplest working solution to the problem that anyone has been able to demonstrate.
    - gjulianm 7y ago

dustinmoris 7y ago

No value comes from many different reasons and one of those is a new value generated from the combination of efforts of many individual contributors. The individual value which someone brings doesn't equal the end value which is being delivered to a customer. The essence of a business is generating new value to end consumers which an individual couldn't do on their own.

cyborgx7 7y ago
The extra value generated from the combination of efforts is still generated by the workers who combined their effort to generate it. Why are the owners more deserving of that "extra value" than the workers?
- spurdoman77 7y ago
  The owners started the business, took the risk, etc. If an employee isnt happy with the salary, he can always ask for more, change employer, or start his own business. It is a fair game IMO.
  - cyborgx7 7y ago
    So he can start his own business, with no capital of their own, so at an inherent disadvantage, or sell their work under value to someone else. This world view only works if you only see people as atomized units and have no sense of a concept of class. And even then it barely works.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    >The owners started the business, took the risk, etc. This does not seem like any kind of justification for continual reward, not to mention it doesn't apply at all in situations where the workers themselves take on a lot of risk day to day (e.g. construction). Furthermore, this would only work as a justification for when the owner really did take a risk, and companies where the current owner is the same as the person who started the business (i.e it's not clear that future CEOs shoulder the same risk). And of course, all of this is based on the idea that risk is an inherent good and worthy of reward and praise - I can see many cases where it's not, especially in very exploitative businesses. >he can always ask for more He can ask for it, but with the weakened power of collective bargaining it's unlikely he'll get it. It also depends on how replaceable the worker is. Did you see the article on HN today about how Kickstarter fired two union organizers? >change employer From the point of view of the worker this doesn't help much at all, since there would be no reason they'd necessarily get a better wage at other places. >or start his own business With what capital? Even if he had capital, why would a worker who is so disillusioned with the nature of wage work feel compelled to start a business? Unless he doesn't care for the plight of others against what he experienced while he was himself a wage worker.

onion2k 7y ago

Where do you think profits come from? Profit is the difference between what you pay your workers and the value of their work. I don't think the OP is refuting that. Paying someone 50% of the value they generate is fine. That's how businesses work. Paying someone 2% of the value they generate because they live in <place with a low cost of living> is much less easy to justify.

cyborgx7 7y ago
It's trivial to justify. Companies exist to maximize profit. You make more profit by paying your employees less. Also, plenty of people in my responses are denying that this is what profit is.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  It is still inhumane. There are other ways of running businesses, but rarely tried as they are typically squashed by bankers or VCs not providing financing. Examples include directly hiring trade unions, cooperatives, associations...
  - cyborgx7 7y ago
    Yes, a society organized around the profit motive is inhumane. That is the point I was making.

gjulianm 7y ago

I am not that naive, thanks. One can understand that you generate X value in part due to your own skill and time, in part due to the company environment. You get a percentage of that value as a salary, the other part goes to the company as profit in a more or less fair partition. But if another developer receives less for the same work you're definitely making it unfair and taking advantage of the fact that the business has more negotiating power than the employee. That's why I say it's cheating and dishonest.

jacknews 7y ago

indeed, in some ways 'profit' is tantamount to 'cheating the people who made that profit (employees) out of their fair share' - certainly when it comes to many big tech companies.