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Yet no serious commentator advocates shutting down tourism out of concern for spread of disease, and it's long been found that the key to preventing infection o

Yet no serious commentator advocates shutting down tourism out of concern for spread of disease, and it's long been found that the key to preventing infection outbreaks is to have a well-functioning medical system.

CapricornNoble 7y ago
Probably because tourists move through very easily monitored access points. Not sure about the US, but most major airports in Asia have body-heat sensors to flag anyone who might be suffering from an infection-related fever. Similar controls should exist at all immigration points to the US. Implementing processes and technical systems to mitigate risk first requires acknowledging that the risk exists, and isn't just "vile rhetoric". Then we can reap the benefits of legal immigration while avoiding the negatives.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  I've never knowingly been tested by any body heat sensor at an airport or other border crossing, and I've travelled plenty in Asia, USA, Europe, and in/out of my home country of Australia. It’s hard to imagine how much use it would be; an active fever is only one indicator of whether someone is carrying an infectious illness, so such a test will lead to many false positives and negatives. I'm fine with a sober discussion about the economic and moral pros/cons of immigration, and about fair and humane means of controlling immigration. But this line of argument seems like a red herring.
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    >>>I've never knowingly been tested by any body heat sensor at an airport or other border crossing, and I've travelled plenty in Asia, USA, Europe, and in/out of my home country of Australia. I guess they are easy to miss, they just look like camcorders on tripods, usually, but the checkpoints themselves and their purpose are usually clearly marked. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-04-27/a-thermal-camera-system-at-incheon-airport-south/1664426 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-04-27/a-thermal-camera-syst... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30523865/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/how-thermal-imaging-cameras-spot-flu-fevers/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30523865/ns/technology_and_science...
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      Both those links refer to specific infection outbreaks, that health authorities feared (rightly or wrongly) may escalate into global pandemics. Both were contained due mostly to medical systems implementing standard procedures for controlling outbreaks. Checking some people at some border crossings may have helped somewhat, but it was only one part of a much broader response. The point stands; no recent, serious infectious outbreak can be blamed on immigration - authorised or not - any more than any can be blamed on tourism. It's just not a serious part of the discussion, and it is likely invoked as an attempt to cast certain classes of foreigners as unclean and trigger susceptible people's disgust response.
      - CapricornNoble 7y ago
        >>>Checking some people at some border crossings may have helped somewhat, but it was only one part of a much broader response. To clarify, the body-heat scans aren't "some people at some border crossings", they are literally every human who walks through the gate at most airports, including Incheon, Taipei, Narita, BKK, and Noi Bai (Hanoi). Usually just before the immigration checkpoints. >>>The point stands; no recent, serious infectious outbreak can be blamed on immigration - authorised or not - any more than any can be blamed on tourism. Handbook on Migration and Security, pg 320: "The spread of the global HIV/AIDS pandemic...was facilitated by human mobility."[1] Or look at the quarantines during the 2009 influenza pandemic[2]. Entire hotels quarantined and cruise ships diverted. >>>likely invoked as an attempt to cast certain classes of foreigners as unclean and trigger susceptible people's disgust response. I'm not trying to paint foreigners as "unclean". I AM a "foreigner". I'm an African-American living in Japan. I know exactly what being treated as an unclean underclass is like. I'm nevertheless able to rationally assess that the country's robust immigration controls are likely a major contributing factor to managing the assimilation rate of other cultures in order to maintain national stability. But instead of responding with well-sourced and rational debate points you've instead lept to implications that I must just be a xenophobe who hates brown people. [1]https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZP6lDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA320#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZP6lDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#Infection_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#Infection_co...
lliamander 7y ago
So are you arguing that disease isn't a risk, or just that there is never a need to have border control to deal with it? It is a risk, one that we can and do take into consideration. Anyone seeking to be a permanent resident in the U.S. is required to have certain vaccinations. That requires a certain level of border and immigration control to enforce. Having a well-functioning medical system is good, but won't help much if your dealing with the spread of disease that isn't easily treatable. Or rather, quarantine is part of a well-functioning medical system. And yes, shutting down travel to/from certain countries experiencing a serious epidemic has been a real consideration in the past. Look, I'm not saying "shut down the borders". All I'm saying is that completely open borders are impractical and ignores real risks.

CapricornNoble 7y ago

Probably because tourists move through very easily monitored access points. Not sure about the US, but most major airports in Asia have body-heat sensors to flag anyone who might be suffering from an infection-related fever. Similar controls should exist at all immigration points to the US. Implementing processes and technical systems to mitigate risk first requires acknowledging that the risk exists, and isn't just "vile rhetoric". Then we can reap the benefits of legal immigration while avoiding the negatives.

tomhoward 7y ago
I've never knowingly been tested by any body heat sensor at an airport or other border crossing, and I've travelled plenty in Asia, USA, Europe, and in/out of my home country of Australia. It’s hard to imagine how much use it would be; an active fever is only one indicator of whether someone is carrying an infectious illness, so such a test will lead to many false positives and negatives. I'm fine with a sober discussion about the economic and moral pros/cons of immigration, and about fair and humane means of controlling immigration. But this line of argument seems like a red herring.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  >>>I've never knowingly been tested by any body heat sensor at an airport or other border crossing, and I've travelled plenty in Asia, USA, Europe, and in/out of my home country of Australia. I guess they are easy to miss, they just look like camcorders on tripods, usually, but the checkpoints themselves and their purpose are usually clearly marked. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-04-27/a-thermal-camera-system-at-incheon-airport-south/1664426 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-04-27/a-thermal-camera-syst... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30523865/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/how-thermal-imaging-cameras-spot-flu-fevers/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30523865/ns/technology_and_science...
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Both those links refer to specific infection outbreaks, that health authorities feared (rightly or wrongly) may escalate into global pandemics. Both were contained due mostly to medical systems implementing standard procedures for controlling outbreaks. Checking some people at some border crossings may have helped somewhat, but it was only one part of a much broader response. The point stands; no recent, serious infectious outbreak can be blamed on immigration - authorised or not - any more than any can be blamed on tourism. It's just not a serious part of the discussion, and it is likely invoked as an attempt to cast certain classes of foreigners as unclean and trigger susceptible people's disgust response.
    - CapricornNoble 7y ago
      >>>Checking some people at some border crossings may have helped somewhat, but it was only one part of a much broader response. To clarify, the body-heat scans aren't "some people at some border crossings", they are literally every human who walks through the gate at most airports, including Incheon, Taipei, Narita, BKK, and Noi Bai (Hanoi). Usually just before the immigration checkpoints. >>>The point stands; no recent, serious infectious outbreak can be blamed on immigration - authorised or not - any more than any can be blamed on tourism. Handbook on Migration and Security, pg 320: "The spread of the global HIV/AIDS pandemic...was facilitated by human mobility."[1] Or look at the quarantines during the 2009 influenza pandemic[2]. Entire hotels quarantined and cruise ships diverted. >>>likely invoked as an attempt to cast certain classes of foreigners as unclean and trigger susceptible people's disgust response. I'm not trying to paint foreigners as "unclean". I AM a "foreigner". I'm an African-American living in Japan. I know exactly what being treated as an unclean underclass is like. I'm nevertheless able to rationally assess that the country's robust immigration controls are likely a major contributing factor to managing the assimilation rate of other cultures in order to maintain national stability. But instead of responding with well-sourced and rational debate points you've instead lept to implications that I must just be a xenophobe who hates brown people. [1]https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZP6lDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA320#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZP6lDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#Infection_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#Infection_co...

lliamander 7y ago

So are you arguing that disease isn't a risk, or just that there is never a need to have border control to deal with it? It is a risk, one that we can and do take into consideration. Anyone seeking to be a permanent resident in the U.S. is required to have certain vaccinations. That requires a certain level of border and immigration control to enforce. Having a well-functioning medical system is good, but won't help much if your dealing with the spread of disease that isn't easily treatable. Or rather, quarantine is part of a well-functioning medical system. And yes, shutting down travel to/from certain countries experiencing a serious epidemic has been a real consideration in the past. Look, I'm not saying "shut down the borders". All I'm saying is that completely open borders are impractical and ignores real risks.