4 ms·

I'm stubbornly anti-union for this reason: https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96IzwzwYHG8rRP95fT_2fNNAWjvnLWTzw_3d https://www.surveymonkey.

I'm stubbornly anti-union for this reason: https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96IzwzwYHG8rRP95fT_2fNNAWjvnLWTzw_3d https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96Izwz... Chart 16 is a breakdown of salaries for StackOverflow users, nearly all of which are so low that a good developer should be insulted to be offered it. Where, on that chart, do you suppose the Union would decide to set my fair salary based on my experience in the trade? 60k? 80k? 100k? No thanks. I'll stick to the free market.

forensic 16y ago
1. A rising tide floats all boats. 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. They can still allow for inequality of pay negotiated on an individual level, but after an initial negotiation on a collective level. Basically you can design the union to still pay higher performers what they are worth and pay low performers a lot less - but with everyone's salaries being increased relative to management.
- anamax 16y ago
  > 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. Maybe not, but let's see some examples that have been significantly better for over 10 years. (And no, teachers unions aren't better.) I agree that it isn't obvious that unions must necessarily be a disaster in the US, but that's a theory argument and you know what they say about theory and practice....
  - forensic 16y ago
    IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. In other countries there are successful unions in industries and contexts where the government plays little role.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. Given that, would you recommend that programmers join unions in the US? If so, why?
      - forensic 16y ago
        Programmers should organize. The precise form of organization can be grown organically to fit the situation, whether you call it a "union" or just as "association" The point is that programmers should organize so that they can improve the pay and general standard of life of every programmer and so they can increase the quality and value of every programmers output and the esteem of the profession in general. Programmers should treat their profession with the same seriousness that Doctors, Lawyers, Psychologists, Actuaries, etc treat their professions. They create professional bodies that stand up for their interests whether it is by lobbying, marketing, bargaining, etc.
        anamax 16y ago
        > The precise form of organization can be grown organically to fit the situation, whether you call it a "union" or just as "association" How is it that calling something an association will avoid the problems from being a union in the US? > The point is that programmers should organize so that they can improve the pay It's poor form to assume your conclusion. You keep bringing up doctors and lawyers (and you misstate what their professional organizations actually do and overstate their influence), yet your goals for a "programmers association" are more akin to those of teachers unions. I understand why you want to avoid the comparison with teachers unions, but the only legitmate way to do so is to stop pushing the same thing. Saying "this will be different" isn't enough. Same means, same ends.
gcb 16y ago
in brazil we have unions (sadly mandatory because of labor laws). it never had a single say on my salary. but for professions abused by the industry, they did set up a minimum wage they would agree to accept, raising the overall pay among the entire profession. and i have no idea what charts 16 does to help you point.
utunga 16y ago
As a gag, years ago, I started a 'union' at a small software vendor/consultancy I worked at. Our first demand? Lower salaries.

forensic 16y ago

1. A rising tide floats all boats. 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. They can still allow for inequality of pay negotiated on an individual level, but after an initial negotiation on a collective level. Basically you can design the union to still pay higher performers what they are worth and pay low performers a lot less - but with everyone's salaries being increased relative to management.

anamax 16y ago
> 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. Maybe not, but let's see some examples that have been significantly better for over 10 years. (And no, teachers unions aren't better.) I agree that it isn't obvious that unions must necessarily be a disaster in the US, but that's a theory argument and you know what they say about theory and practice....
- forensic 16y ago
  IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. In other countries there are successful unions in industries and contexts where the government plays little role.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. Given that, would you recommend that programmers join unions in the US? If so, why?
    - forensic 16y ago
      Programmers should organize. The precise form of organization can be grown organically to fit the situation, whether you call it a "union" or just as "association" The point is that programmers should organize so that they can improve the pay and general standard of life of every programmer and so they can increase the quality and value of every programmers output and the esteem of the profession in general. Programmers should treat their profession with the same seriousness that Doctors, Lawyers, Psychologists, Actuaries, etc treat their professions. They create professional bodies that stand up for their interests whether it is by lobbying, marketing, bargaining, etc.
      - anamax 16y ago
        > The precise form of organization can be grown organically to fit the situation, whether you call it a "union" or just as "association" How is it that calling something an association will avoid the problems from being a union in the US? > The point is that programmers should organize so that they can improve the pay It's poor form to assume your conclusion. You keep bringing up doctors and lawyers (and you misstate what their professional organizations actually do and overstate their influence), yet your goals for a "programmers association" are more akin to those of teachers unions. I understand why you want to avoid the comparison with teachers unions, but the only legitmate way to do so is to stop pushing the same thing. Saying "this will be different" isn't enough. Same means, same ends.

gcb 16y ago

in brazil we have unions (sadly mandatory because of labor laws). it never had a single say on my salary. but for professions abused by the industry, they did set up a minimum wage they would agree to accept, raising the overall pay among the entire profession. and i have no idea what charts 16 does to help you point.

utunga 16y ago

As a gag, years ago, I started a 'union' at a small software vendor/consultancy I worked at. Our first demand? Lower salaries.