4 ms·

ICE Fails to Redact Document, Reveals Location of 'Urban Warfare' Facility

39 points by spraak 7y ago

neya 7y ago
Just curious, if this seems to be of uttermost importance pertaining to national security, then why do the media broadcast it for the rest of the world to see?
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  They’re doing their job? It was a leak. Also ICE screwed up.
- mattnewton 7y ago
  There is a balance to be struck, sure, but the duty of the press is to inform the public, not to act as censors or to determine what is or is not a matter of national security.
- jacobtwotwo 7y ago
  The press is partially there to disagree with or at least critique such subjective judgments.
- whytaka 7y ago
  The fifth estate isn't an apparatus of the government. Sometimes, it must act counter to the interests of the government.
- journalctl 7y ago
  First of all, none of this is actually important for national security. Second, the media does this to help hold government accountable.
- john-radio 7y ago
  Two points, in reverse order: > why do the media broadcast it for the rest of the world to see? ICE broadcasted it, didn't they? It's in nobody's best interest to pretend that the information was successfully redacted. > this seems to be of uttermost importance pertaining to national security Are we talking about the same ICE? ICE is a joke; everyone was better off before it was created in 2002 and it should be abolished and prevented from wasting any more of my money on "URBAN WARFARE!1!" facilities. Give me a break.
- drivingmenuts 7y ago
  Because governments should be accountable to the governed, and the media is part of the governed. Media is not a separate arm of the people, it is a more involved and interpreted part of the people. This is why it’s so alarming when a politician calls media “the enemy” because they are, in effect, saying their own people are the enemy.
Synaesthesia 7y ago
Why would ICE need an “Urban Warfare” facility? Note that this is at the famous counter-insurgency training centre, the US army “School of Americas”, notorious for training central and South American death squads.
- _iyig 7y ago
  It’s just a fancy SWAT team training facility. Probably has “Warfare” in the name because it’s getting built on Ft. Benning, an Army base. Wouldn’t be surprised if the facility gets shared with Army units who also do indoor and urban combat training.
  - tomschlick 7y ago
    This seems like the most plausible explanation. Federal agencies / military share these types of facilities everywhere. It's sad you're being downvoted for it.
  - codeddesign 7y ago
    Why is this downvoted? He has a point to a plausible reason for the name. It’s built at an army base that is also likely used for multiple different types of units. Would it make everyone sleep better at night naming it “Fluffy Bear Facility”? Would everyone prefer that we don’t have the tactical ability when and if needed? I am personally highly against war, but at the same time I feel much more comfortable knowing that we do have the ability and advantage when needed. I think the argument should be “how is this facility used and under what circumstances do these trained units utilize their skills?”
    - eesmith 7y ago
      Because 1) there is nothing in the document about it being a shared resource (copy at https://www.wabe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/LSJ_Hyper_Realistic_Training_Devices_redacted__1__pdf_AZUFaO_Z.pdf https://www.wabe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/LSJ_Hyper_Re... ), and 2) the FBI already has such facilities, like 'Hogan's Alley' at Quantico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Alley_(FBI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Alley_(FBI) ). There are many other similar facilities, like in Artesia, NM https://www.fletc.gov/artesia-new-mexico https://www.fletc.gov/artesia-new-mexico Now, the document claims that this will be a "hyper-realistic" facility, and that only one company is able to provide such unique capabilities. This leads to some obvious questions: 1) if hyperrealism is so important, why aren't the other facilities, including the FBI, already asking for improvements to their existing sites? 2) why should there be new sites for these sorts of training facilities - what tactical training abilities aren't already available? and 3) if it's so important, why isn't it explicitly being developed as a shared resource? I think the bureaucratic is more reasonable than the one proposed by the grandparent post, that is, each federal organization acts as its own fiefdom and wants its own things. Plus, there's probably some graft - is it really the case that only a single company can provide such construction?
purnama777 7y ago
Why ICE Fails of Urban Warfare Facility ?
siruncledrew 7y ago
> “... training facility that is expected to include "hyper-realistic" simulations of homes, hotels and commercial buildings in Chicago and Arizona.” Is there something special about Chicago and Arizona?
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  Most likely areas where they perform a lot of family separations that can also be close enough to other common locations with many people of color to be a useful training aid. Arizona is close to the south with wide open cities and Chicago is indicative of a lot of northern cities with choose packed buildings. There's already a ton of teaching facilities for individual houses or foreign locations. This is really not that surprising. If they were building something like Minneapolis or Boise I'd take more notice.
- spraak 7y ago
  I am wondering the same thing

39 points by spraak 7y ago

neya 7y ago

Just curious, if this seems to be of uttermost importance pertaining to national security, then why do the media broadcast it for the rest of the world to see?

Synaesthesia 7y ago
They’re doing their job? It was a leak. Also ICE screwed up.
mattnewton 7y ago
There is a balance to be struck, sure, but the duty of the press is to inform the public, not to act as censors or to determine what is or is not a matter of national security.
jacobtwotwo 7y ago
The press is partially there to disagree with or at least critique such subjective judgments.
whytaka 7y ago
The fifth estate isn't an apparatus of the government. Sometimes, it must act counter to the interests of the government.
journalctl 7y ago
First of all, none of this is actually important for national security. Second, the media does this to help hold government accountable.
john-radio 7y ago
Two points, in reverse order: > why do the media broadcast it for the rest of the world to see? ICE broadcasted it, didn't they? It's in nobody's best interest to pretend that the information was successfully redacted. > this seems to be of uttermost importance pertaining to national security Are we talking about the same ICE? ICE is a joke; everyone was better off before it was created in 2002 and it should be abolished and prevented from wasting any more of my money on "URBAN WARFARE!1!" facilities. Give me a break.
drivingmenuts 7y ago
Because governments should be accountable to the governed, and the media is part of the governed. Media is not a separate arm of the people, it is a more involved and interpreted part of the people. This is why it’s so alarming when a politician calls media “the enemy” because they are, in effect, saying their own people are the enemy.

Synaesthesia 7y ago

Why would ICE need an “Urban Warfare” facility? Note that this is at the famous counter-insurgency training centre, the US army “School of Americas”, notorious for training central and South American death squads.

_iyig 7y ago
It’s just a fancy SWAT team training facility. Probably has “Warfare” in the name because it’s getting built on Ft. Benning, an Army base. Wouldn’t be surprised if the facility gets shared with Army units who also do indoor and urban combat training.
- tomschlick 7y ago
  This seems like the most plausible explanation. Federal agencies / military share these types of facilities everywhere. It's sad you're being downvoted for it.
- codeddesign 7y ago
  Why is this downvoted? He has a point to a plausible reason for the name. It’s built at an army base that is also likely used for multiple different types of units. Would it make everyone sleep better at night naming it “Fluffy Bear Facility”? Would everyone prefer that we don’t have the tactical ability when and if needed? I am personally highly against war, but at the same time I feel much more comfortable knowing that we do have the ability and advantage when needed. I think the argument should be “how is this facility used and under what circumstances do these trained units utilize their skills?”
  - eesmith 7y ago
    Because 1) there is nothing in the document about it being a shared resource (copy at https://www.wabe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/LSJ_Hyper_Realistic_Training_Devices_redacted__1__pdf_AZUFaO_Z.pdf https://www.wabe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/LSJ_Hyper_Re... ), and 2) the FBI already has such facilities, like 'Hogan's Alley' at Quantico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Alley_(FBI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Alley_(FBI) ). There are many other similar facilities, like in Artesia, NM https://www.fletc.gov/artesia-new-mexico https://www.fletc.gov/artesia-new-mexico Now, the document claims that this will be a "hyper-realistic" facility, and that only one company is able to provide such unique capabilities. This leads to some obvious questions: 1) if hyperrealism is so important, why aren't the other facilities, including the FBI, already asking for improvements to their existing sites? 2) why should there be new sites for these sorts of training facilities - what tactical training abilities aren't already available? and 3) if it's so important, why isn't it explicitly being developed as a shared resource? I think the bureaucratic is more reasonable than the one proposed by the grandparent post, that is, each federal organization acts as its own fiefdom and wants its own things. Plus, there's probably some graft - is it really the case that only a single company can provide such construction?

purnama777 7y ago

Why ICE Fails of Urban Warfare Facility ?

siruncledrew 7y ago

> “... training facility that is expected to include "hyper-realistic" simulations of homes, hotels and commercial buildings in Chicago and Arizona.” Is there something special about Chicago and Arizona?

cannonedhamster 7y ago
Most likely areas where they perform a lot of family separations that can also be close enough to other common locations with many people of color to be a useful training aid. Arizona is close to the south with wide open cities and Chicago is indicative of a lot of northern cities with choose packed buildings. There's already a ton of teaching facilities for individual houses or foreign locations. This is really not that surprising. If they were building something like Minneapolis or Boise I'd take more notice.
spraak 7y ago
I am wondering the same thing