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Kickstarter Has Fired Two Union Organizers in 8 Days

syspec 7y ago
Are the working conditions at Kickstarter so bad that employees felt that they needed to unionize to have their voices heard? Can any employees chime in
- pessimizer 7y ago
  Unions aren't something you need working conditions to be bad to do. It's fine for a union to be generally happy with management, and mainly be there just to represent members in disputes with them.
- eridius 7y ago
  That shouldn't even be a question. You shouldn't need to have working conditions be "so bad" before you consider a union.
  - kirsebaer 7y ago
    Yeah, it's like a married woman in the 19th century would like to speak with a lawyer about her rights, and her husband forbids it, and people comment "oh, but is he really so bad? Why does she need a lawyer anyway?" Employees are in a vulnerable position. It makes sense for them to join together and jointly hire lawyers and professional negotiators. A company that forbids you from joining a union is abusive. I've been in a union and it was super helpful. Your start-up team wouldn't sign an agreement with a VC without consulting an attorney. Why should your employees sign an employment contract without getting outside advice and help?
    - croh 7y ago
      > Your start-up team wouldn't sign an agreement with a VC without consulting an attorney. Why should your employees sign an employment contract without getting outside advice and help? This is really good point.
      - jeegsy 7y ago
        So from a lawyer then?
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      > I've been in a union and it was super helpful. Another anecdote: I’ve been in an unions and it did nothing for us. We were still working minimum wage.
- TheChaplain 7y ago
  IMHO I think it's unlikely you would get any serious replies... Kickstarter is sure to monitor this thread.
  - flukus 7y ago
    The fact that discussing your working conditions online can have repercussions is itself a minor reason to unionize.
- jkestner 7y ago
  Yes. Covered in https://slate.com/technology/2019/09/kickstarter-turmoil-union-drive-historic-tech-industry.html https://slate.com/technology/2019/09/kickstarter-turmoil-uni... The union wanted to ensure management adhered to the company’s stated values, notably in pay equality and standing up to fascists.
  - skrebbel 7y ago
    Your comment makes it sound like Kickstarter has fascist employees who were being protected by management. Reading the article, it turns out it's about a comic book posted on Kickstarter that explicitly condones and encourages solving political differences with violence, this breaking their ToS. In particular, this work encouraged violence against fascists, so it's a relatively defensible position, but it's totally not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I'm not entirely sure I think it's right to encourage violence against any group, even ones I despise. I understand that their ToS block it. In fact, I'm confused that one would unionize over their employer blocking a work that violates their ToS.
    - jamesrcole 7y ago
      > a comic book posted on Kickstarter that explicitly condones and encourages solving political differences with violence, this breaking their ToS. In particular, this work encouraged violence against fascists, so it's a relatively defensible position, but it's totally not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I think this is totally a matter of the ToS and what it says, and in those terms the matter seems entirely clear cut. In terms of the ToS it (the comic book) seems in no way defensible. Aside from that, I don't see how anyone can claim to be against solving political differences with violence if they make exceptions to that rule.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - PinguTS 7y ago
        The thing is Kickstarter don’t give f* on their own TOS. I know I simply paraphrase here: their own TOS says, that there are no copycat products allowed. They need to have huge improvement over the original. The other day they had a featured product, which I immediately recognized as simple copycat of a typical Chinese product. I know the German FBA version. I pointed that out to Kickstarter. They told me, no it isn’t because it has a major improvement. The major improvement was that it was simply missing a feature and the imitated wood housing was a different imitated wood. TL/DR as long as it brings money in Kickstarter don’t care about their own TOS.
- otaviokz 7y ago
  Should they need a special motive/excuse to unionise?
- baq 7y ago
  Why a company can have an HR division and its employees aren’t allowed to?
- pimmen 7y ago
  A union protects the workers from exploitation. Their work is just as much proactive as it is reactive. I mean, just imagine an investor asking a company if their workers are so bad that they need an HR department.
jkestner 7y ago
This is important. Kickstarter has presented itself to the public and employees as an ethical company, a public benefit corporation. It would probably be the best-known tech company to have a union, and we can't set that kind of example, now.
fouc 7y ago
That awkward phase when you try to build a culture of positive values and then your employees start trying to hold you to that (or "take advantage" by unionizing) and then now you have to walk that back, and tamp down on that culture. However plenty of other companies successfully did that, so Kickstarter surely can too.
soganess 7y ago
That tech sheen is really starting wear off and we are grappling with just how beholden/vulnerable we are. As a society and as individual tech worker we are living with these massive cooperations that pretend they have everyone's interest in mind. If the article is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt) then I truly appreciate these individuals doing the important work of pushing this topic further into our collective understanding. I just wish things had gone differently for them.
- bigYahnz 7y ago
  How is it possible that you have the intellect required to work in tech and somehow believed any of these companies could give a single fuck about you?... They couldn't care less. Do your job, cog.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
koonsolo 7y ago
In Belgium it's almost impossible to fire elected members of the union. On one hand it makes sense, but on the other it brings all kinds of new problems.
- pimmen 7y ago
  Same thing in Sweden. The unions are super strong here, which is one of the reasons there is no legal minimum wage in Sweden. It's not perceived as necessary by the public, political parties or the unions. The unions have more than enough power to negotiate and enforce good, liveable wages anyway.

Are the working conditions at Kickstarter so bad that employees felt that they needed to unionize to have their voices heard? Can any employees chime in

pessimizer 7y ago
Unions aren't something you need working conditions to be bad to do. It's fine for a union to be generally happy with management, and mainly be there just to represent members in disputes with them.
eridius 7y ago
That shouldn't even be a question. You shouldn't need to have working conditions be "so bad" before you consider a union.
- kirsebaer 7y ago
  Yeah, it's like a married woman in the 19th century would like to speak with a lawyer about her rights, and her husband forbids it, and people comment "oh, but is he really so bad? Why does she need a lawyer anyway?" Employees are in a vulnerable position. It makes sense for them to join together and jointly hire lawyers and professional negotiators. A company that forbids you from joining a union is abusive. I've been in a union and it was super helpful. Your start-up team wouldn't sign an agreement with a VC without consulting an attorney. Why should your employees sign an employment contract without getting outside advice and help?
  - croh 7y ago
    > Your start-up team wouldn't sign an agreement with a VC without consulting an attorney. Why should your employees sign an employment contract without getting outside advice and help? This is really good point.
    - jeegsy 7y ago
      So from a lawyer then?
  - colejohnson66 7y ago
    > I've been in a union and it was super helpful. Another anecdote: I’ve been in an unions and it did nothing for us. We were still working minimum wage.
TheChaplain 7y ago
IMHO I think it's unlikely you would get any serious replies... Kickstarter is sure to monitor this thread.
- flukus 7y ago
  The fact that discussing your working conditions online can have repercussions is itself a minor reason to unionize.
jkestner 7y ago
Yes. Covered in https://slate.com/technology/2019/09/kickstarter-turmoil-union-drive-historic-tech-industry.html https://slate.com/technology/2019/09/kickstarter-turmoil-uni... The union wanted to ensure management adhered to the company’s stated values, notably in pay equality and standing up to fascists.
- skrebbel 7y ago
  Your comment makes it sound like Kickstarter has fascist employees who were being protected by management. Reading the article, it turns out it's about a comic book posted on Kickstarter that explicitly condones and encourages solving political differences with violence, this breaking their ToS. In particular, this work encouraged violence against fascists, so it's a relatively defensible position, but it's totally not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I'm not entirely sure I think it's right to encourage violence against any group, even ones I despise. I understand that their ToS block it. In fact, I'm confused that one would unionize over their employer blocking a work that violates their ToS.
  - jamesrcole 7y ago
    > a comic book posted on Kickstarter that explicitly condones and encourages solving political differences with violence, this breaking their ToS. In particular, this work encouraged violence against fascists, so it's a relatively defensible position, but it's totally not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I think this is totally a matter of the ToS and what it says, and in those terms the matter seems entirely clear cut. In terms of the ToS it (the comic book) seems in no way defensible. Aside from that, I don't see how anyone can claim to be against solving political differences with violence if they make exceptions to that rule.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - PinguTS 7y ago
      The thing is Kickstarter don’t give f* on their own TOS. I know I simply paraphrase here: their own TOS says, that there are no copycat products allowed. They need to have huge improvement over the original. The other day they had a featured product, which I immediately recognized as simple copycat of a typical Chinese product. I know the German FBA version. I pointed that out to Kickstarter. They told me, no it isn’t because it has a major improvement. The major improvement was that it was simply missing a feature and the imitated wood housing was a different imitated wood. TL/DR as long as it brings money in Kickstarter don’t care about their own TOS.
otaviokz 7y ago
Should they need a special motive/excuse to unionise?
baq 7y ago
Why a company can have an HR division and its employees aren’t allowed to?
pimmen 7y ago
A union protects the workers from exploitation. Their work is just as much proactive as it is reactive. I mean, just imagine an investor asking a company if their workers are so bad that they need an HR department.

jkestner 7y ago

This is important. Kickstarter has presented itself to the public and employees as an ethical company, a public benefit corporation. It would probably be the best-known tech company to have a union, and we can't set that kind of example, now.

fouc 7y ago

That awkward phase when you try to build a culture of positive values and then your employees start trying to hold you to that (or "take advantage" by unionizing) and then now you have to walk that back, and tamp down on that culture. However plenty of other companies successfully did that, so Kickstarter surely can too.

soganess 7y ago

That tech sheen is really starting wear off and we are grappling with just how beholden/vulnerable we are. As a society and as individual tech worker we are living with these massive cooperations that pretend they have everyone's interest in mind. If the article is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt) then I truly appreciate these individuals doing the important work of pushing this topic further into our collective understanding. I just wish things had gone differently for them.

bigYahnz 7y ago
How is it possible that you have the intellect required to work in tech and somehow believed any of these companies could give a single fuck about you?... They couldn't care less. Do your job, cog.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

koonsolo 7y ago

In Belgium it's almost impossible to fire elected members of the union. On one hand it makes sense, but on the other it brings all kinds of new problems.

pimmen 7y ago
Same thing in Sweden. The unions are super strong here, which is one of the reasons there is no legal minimum wage in Sweden. It's not perceived as necessary by the public, political parties or the unions. The unions have more than enough power to negotiate and enforce good, liveable wages anyway.