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The sr-71 gets all the glory but go look at some of the aircraft that lost competitions. The convair kingfish that lost to the 71 was decades ahead. It lost for

The sr-71 gets all the glory but go look at some of the aircraft that lost competitions. The convair kingfish that lost to the 71 was decades ahead. It lost for a number of reasons, some valid, some not. The f-22 competitor was super interesting as well.

aidenn0 7y ago
Yeah, the YF-23 wins a lot of cool points on looks alone[1], and it was faster and stealthier than the F-22. Taking the -22 was probably the right choice given that it was lower risk and absurdly better than anything it's likely to encounter in its operational life. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_top_view.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-...
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  It seems the Airforce likes their bombers from Northrop, their fighters from Lockheed, and unmanned vehicles from Boeing.
  - farseer 7y ago
    There are a lot of political and national security concerns involved in that. The Air Force wants to maintain three aviation vendors in the industry as a matter of policy, otherwise Boeing and Lockheed are equally capable of making bombers. Awarding the JSF to Lockheed two decades earlier had similar connotations. Boeing could maintain its aviation capabilities and expertise on the back of its commercial business. For Lockheed, losing the JSF would have meant the end of its aviation unit which the USAF deemed critical for national security.
    - trhway 7y ago
      On technical origins of F-35 - https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Lockheed-Martin-fund-Yak-141/answer/Jones-Averino https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Lockheed-Martin-fund-Yak-141/a... . Many people don't know the story and thus are naturally puzzled where such a piece of wonder for a fighter as F-35 is coming from.
- mgarfias 7y ago
  Funny, the way i remember it happening: both YF-22s were lost do to mishaps, the YF-23 was faster, stealthier, and just as maneuverable without the vectored thrust. The AF wanted the -23, but the chairman of the senate armed services committee was from Georgia, where Lockheed promised to build the -22. and the history got rewritten. Source: Dad was part of the YF-23 program at northrop and lost his gog when the project was shitcanned. yes, still bitter almost 30 years later.
  - close04 7y ago
    > the way i remember it happening: both YF-22s were lost do to mishaps Seems they're museums pieces now and look relatively unscathed. [0][1] > The two YF-23 prototypes were museum exhibits as of 2010 [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_PAV-2_%22Spider%22_Static.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_in_the_restoration_area_of_the_usaf_museum.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-...
    - dkersten 7y ago
      > both YF-22s were lost > The two YF-23 prototypes were museum exhibits The 22's were lost, the 23's were museum exhibits, not the same planes.
      - close04 7y ago
        My bad, my brain read it as “the 23s were lost”. Sleep deprivation at its best.
- phreeza 7y ago
  Oh man, growing up I had a book of aeroplanes, with diagrams and stats for hundreds of planes that I would obsess over. But the editors did a very cruel thing which was putting a photo of the YF-23 on the cover, but the plane was not in the book. Drove me nuts!
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    That may have been the first recorded instance of clickbait.
nunb 7y ago
YF-23 actually looked futuristic, the F-22 looks like a mild modernization of the F-15/18
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  The kingfish looked like something more modern than an f-117. The f-16xl that lost to the f-15e looked like a modern European design. The boeing jsf was... Ugly, but the grumman one was cool looking. Its kind of a trend, the losers are so much cooler.
  - blackflame7000 7y ago
    You can definitely see the B2 exhaust design in the Y23. It seems the Northrop gets the bombers and Lockheed gets the fighters. Makes sense logistically.
    - willvarfar 7y ago
      Nothing about modern fighter procurement makes any sense logistically! It seems the F22 was basically picked on the promise to make as many components in as many separate states as possible, in order to ensure every politician on the hill brought into it. And the idea of servicing different parts of the F35 in different buying countries is another logistical masterstroke, not! Oh my god, servicing F35 engines in Turkey just when Turkey starts to dance with Russia, what were we thinking? Right now we're telling Turkey you can't have the F35 because you've just brought the S400 SAMs from Russia, but we've already invested in servicing the F35 engines there...
      - avar 7y ago
        Turkey already bought F-35s[1], but are being told both that they can't buy anymore, and the servicing of the engines will be moved out of Turkey by 2020 if they insist on buying the S-400 from Russia[2][3]. Also, even if they didn't sell the F-35 to Turkey but still serviced the engines there that would make logical sense. The reason the US is paranoid about the S-400 is because they think radar data about the F-35 and other NATO aircraft will be fed back to Russia[4]. That concern obviously doesn't apply to a stand-alone F-35 engine sitting on the ground. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... 2. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/07/turkish-suppliers-to-be-eliminated-from-f-35-program-in-2020/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/07/turkish-suppliers... 3. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/16/trump-turkey-will-be-out-f-35-fighter-jet-program-after-s-400-buy.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/16/trump-turkey-... 4. https://news.usni.org/2019/07/15/f-35-program-leadership-changes-as-turkeys-future-in-program-uncertain https://news.usni.org/2019/07/15/f-35-program-leadership-cha...
justin66 7y ago
> The convair kingfish that lost to the 71 was decades ahead. It was never built, let alone flown.
selectodude 7y ago
The Convair Kingfish never actually existed and the A12 flew higher, farther, cost far less and Convair couldn’t put an aircraft in the air on time or on budget to save their lives.

aidenn0 7y ago

Yeah, the YF-23 wins a lot of cool points on looks alone[1], and it was faster and stealthier than the F-22. Taking the -22 was probably the right choice given that it was lower risk and absurdly better than anything it's likely to encounter in its operational life. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_top_view.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-...

blackflame7000 7y ago
It seems the Airforce likes their bombers from Northrop, their fighters from Lockheed, and unmanned vehicles from Boeing.
- farseer 7y ago
  There are a lot of political and national security concerns involved in that. The Air Force wants to maintain three aviation vendors in the industry as a matter of policy, otherwise Boeing and Lockheed are equally capable of making bombers. Awarding the JSF to Lockheed two decades earlier had similar connotations. Boeing could maintain its aviation capabilities and expertise on the back of its commercial business. For Lockheed, losing the JSF would have meant the end of its aviation unit which the USAF deemed critical for national security.
  - trhway 7y ago
    On technical origins of F-35 - https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Lockheed-Martin-fund-Yak-141/answer/Jones-Averino https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Lockheed-Martin-fund-Yak-141/a... . Many people don't know the story and thus are naturally puzzled where such a piece of wonder for a fighter as F-35 is coming from.
mgarfias 7y ago
Funny, the way i remember it happening: both YF-22s were lost do to mishaps, the YF-23 was faster, stealthier, and just as maneuverable without the vectored thrust. The AF wanted the -23, but the chairman of the senate armed services committee was from Georgia, where Lockheed promised to build the -22. and the history got rewritten. Source: Dad was part of the YF-23 program at northrop and lost his gog when the project was shitcanned. yes, still bitter almost 30 years later.
- close04 7y ago
  > the way i remember it happening: both YF-22s were lost do to mishaps Seems they're museums pieces now and look relatively unscathed. [0][1] > The two YF-23 prototypes were museum exhibits as of 2010 [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_PAV-2_%22Spider%22_Static.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-23_in_the_restoration_area_of_the_usaf_museum.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-23#/media/File:YF-...
  - dkersten 7y ago
    > both YF-22s were lost > The two YF-23 prototypes were museum exhibits The 22's were lost, the 23's were museum exhibits, not the same planes.
    - close04 7y ago
      My bad, my brain read it as “the 23s were lost”. Sleep deprivation at its best.
phreeza 7y ago
Oh man, growing up I had a book of aeroplanes, with diagrams and stats for hundreds of planes that I would obsess over. But the editors did a very cruel thing which was putting a photo of the YF-23 on the cover, but the plane was not in the book. Drove me nuts!
- jacquesm 7y ago
  That may have been the first recorded instance of clickbait.

nunb 7y ago

YF-23 actually looked futuristic, the F-22 looks like a mild modernization of the F-15/18

galangalalgol 7y ago
The kingfish looked like something more modern than an f-117. The f-16xl that lost to the f-15e looked like a modern European design. The boeing jsf was... Ugly, but the grumman one was cool looking. Its kind of a trend, the losers are so much cooler.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  You can definitely see the B2 exhaust design in the Y23. It seems the Northrop gets the bombers and Lockheed gets the fighters. Makes sense logistically.
  - willvarfar 7y ago
    Nothing about modern fighter procurement makes any sense logistically! It seems the F22 was basically picked on the promise to make as many components in as many separate states as possible, in order to ensure every politician on the hill brought into it. And the idea of servicing different parts of the F35 in different buying countries is another logistical masterstroke, not! Oh my god, servicing F35 engines in Turkey just when Turkey starts to dance with Russia, what were we thinking? Right now we're telling Turkey you can't have the F35 because you've just brought the S400 SAMs from Russia, but we've already invested in servicing the F35 engines there...
    - avar 7y ago
      Turkey already bought F-35s[1], but are being told both that they can't buy anymore, and the servicing of the engines will be moved out of Turkey by 2020 if they insist on buying the S-400 from Russia[2][3]. Also, even if they didn't sell the F-35 to Turkey but still serviced the engines there that would make logical sense. The reason the US is paranoid about the S-400 is because they think radar data about the F-35 and other NATO aircraft will be fed back to Russia[4]. That concern obviously doesn't apply to a stand-alone F-35 engine sitting on the ground. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... 2. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/07/turkish-suppliers-to-be-eliminated-from-f-35-program-in-2020/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/07/turkish-suppliers... 3. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/16/trump-turkey-will-be-out-f-35-fighter-jet-program-after-s-400-buy.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/16/trump-turkey-... 4. https://news.usni.org/2019/07/15/f-35-program-leadership-changes-as-turkeys-future-in-program-uncertain https://news.usni.org/2019/07/15/f-35-program-leadership-cha...

justin66 7y ago

> The convair kingfish that lost to the 71 was decades ahead. It was never built, let alone flown.

selectodude 7y ago

The Convair Kingfish never actually existed and the A12 flew higher, farther, cost far less and Convair couldn’t put an aircraft in the air on time or on budget to save their lives.