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>>>A bit of a tangent, but how is the US/Mexico border a "defense" issue? Border security is THE most basic, fundamental responsibility of national defense. Th

>>>A bit of a tangent, but how is the US/Mexico border a "defense" issue? Border security is THE most basic, fundamental responsibility of national defense. The US has just spent so frickin' long with benign powers on its land borders, and so focused on global expeditionary operations, that its border security efforts have atrophied. That said, national defense is now an over-arching term that includes a mix of law enforcement and military responsibilities and tasks. Note that securing our airspace "borders" largely falls onto Combat Air Patrols conducted by the various state Air National Guards, typically flying F-16s or F-15s. >>>I am unaware of any Latin American terrorist groups threatening the USA. Maybe not Latin American ones, but Al Qaeda just called for renewed attacks on the US in the wake of the 9/11 anniversary.[1] We KNOW that illegal aliens are crossing into the US traveling from as far as west/central Africa. [2] West Africa already has an Islamic terrorism problem.[3] From a risk assessment/risk management perspective, it is wise to allocate resources to reduce the chance of AQ or ISIS agents sneaking across our southern border, which leaks like a sieve. >>>If the US/Mexico border is a defense issue, then it should be entirely militarized? I think most major countries handle it as a national-level law enforcement responsibility, but sometimes there are still significant military forces involved. As a point of comparison, China uses Army forces for border security, in addition to other agencies.[4] Russia's primary border force is a law-enforcement organization.[5] [1]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/al-qaeda-chief-issues-911-video-message-urging-attacks-us-europe-russia-israel https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/al-qaeda-chief-issues... [2]https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-02/watch-first-large-group-africa-crosses-rio-grande-us https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-02/watch-first-large-... [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram [4]https://china-defense.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-second-line-pla-units-facing-north.html https://china-defense.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-second-line-p... [5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Service_of_the_Federal_Security_Service_of_the_Russian_Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Service_of_the_Federal_...

aey 7y ago
Then why aren’t they deploying this on the US/Canadian border? Or Alaska? I can see Russia from there. This whole thing smacks of corruption.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  Because there is significantly less illegal immigration coming from those borders. Responsible resource allocation involves employing your assets where they will net the greatest utility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_maximization_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_maximization_problem Let's say 1 Anduril Widget would stop 10 border crossings/year on the southern border, but only 1/yr on the Canadian border. If I have 100 widgets, allocating them all to the southern border is the objectively superior employment of my assets. Only if my marginal utility per widget drops to preventing <1 crossing per year in the SOUTH should I even CONSIDER shifting resources to the northern border.
  - chillwaves 7y ago
    That's right, because most illegal immigration comes in the form of visa overstays. They are coming in the sky!!
    - filoleg 7y ago
      Parent is not talking about illegal immigration as a whole, they are clearly talking about illegal immigration due to illegal border crossings.
    - tomp 7y ago
      Those people are quite well accounted for, right (IIRC they take your photos and fingerprints when you cross the border, presumably also for visa application). Completely different from an illegal "new-immigrant" that crosses the border unnoticed.
  - aey 7y ago
    Why does DoD care about illegal immigration? Mexico is not about to invade. This is useless to their mission. If they are going to build it and hand it of to border patrol, then Congress should fund it with the border patrols budget. Which they won’t, because this is as useless as a physical wall. So funding it with the money taxpayers allocated for the DoD is the definition of corruption.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
No it’s not, the most basic responsibility of national defense is stopping invading armies. Or maybe it’s dealing with the other nuclear powers. Stopping people coming over the border to be residents is probably not in the top 10 of national defense priorities. Honestly, as a matter of policy I don’t think it’s even something we are trying to do since immigration is so good for GDP, and nothing else really matters as much as growing GDP.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  >>>No it’s not, the most basic responsibility of national defense is stopping invading armies. And where do you intend to stop the invading armies, if not....at your border? >>>Stopping people coming over the border to be residents is probably not in the top 10 of national defense priorities. Well, let's take a look at the 2018 National Defense Strategy: https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2018-National-Defense-Strategy-Summary.pdf https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2018-Nation... Page 4, Defense Objectives, first line: -Defending the homeland from attack That's vague enough to cover infiltration of terrorist organizations across the border.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    You would stop invading armies everywhere, at the border, inside the border, in their homeland and the lands of their allies, in the borders of your own allies, anywhere. Do you imagine border patrol plays a key strategic role in war? What would be an example of that from history?
    - CapricornNoble 7y ago
      >>>You would stop invading armies everywhere, at the border, inside the border, in their homeland and the lands of their allies, in the borders of your own allies, anywhere. "Defend everywhere" makes for a very poor Commander's Intent or Mission Statement. If you are defending "inside the border"...you've already failed at stopping your adversary AT the border. It also violates almost half of the Principles of War (mass, objective, economy of force, simplicity). Reference Appendix B of [6]. >>>Do you imagine border patrol plays a key strategic role in war? What would be an example of that from history? From[1]: "Pakistani patrols began patrolling in territory controlled by India in January 1965, which was followed by attacks by both countries on each other's posts on 8 April 1965.[44][45] Initially involving border police from both nations, the disputed area soon witnessed intermittent skirmishes between the countries' armed forces." Re: [2][3]These Soviet-Japanese border conflicts would have 2nd and 3rd order effects on military doctrine, development, and strategic focus (the Japanese stopped poking the Bear and focused on China). The Soviets gained some confidence in their operational doctrine and gained confidence fighting the Japanese (who they last fought against, and lost to, in the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War). Reference [4] describes how the Soviets managed border security during their Afghanistan war. Reference [5] has a short section on "Border Security in Contemporary Counterinsurgency" to summarize border control issues from Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq. It particularly points out the significant political ramifications of cross-border insurgents and counter-insurgency operations. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol [4]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2015.1030276 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2015.10... [5]https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA503298 https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA503298 [6]https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/MCPEL/Electronic-Library-Display/Article/1323621/mcdp-1-0-w-ch1-3 https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/MCPEL/Electronic-L...

aey 7y ago

Then why aren’t they deploying this on the US/Canadian border? Or Alaska? I can see Russia from there. This whole thing smacks of corruption.

CapricornNoble 7y ago
Because there is significantly less illegal immigration coming from those borders. Responsible resource allocation involves employing your assets where they will net the greatest utility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_maximization_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_maximization_problem Let's say 1 Anduril Widget would stop 10 border crossings/year on the southern border, but only 1/yr on the Canadian border. If I have 100 widgets, allocating them all to the southern border is the objectively superior employment of my assets. Only if my marginal utility per widget drops to preventing <1 crossing per year in the SOUTH should I even CONSIDER shifting resources to the northern border.
- chillwaves 7y ago
  That's right, because most illegal immigration comes in the form of visa overstays. They are coming in the sky!!
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Parent is not talking about illegal immigration as a whole, they are clearly talking about illegal immigration due to illegal border crossings.
  - tomp 7y ago
    Those people are quite well accounted for, right (IIRC they take your photos and fingerprints when you cross the border, presumably also for visa application). Completely different from an illegal "new-immigrant" that crosses the border unnoticed.
- aey 7y ago
  Why does DoD care about illegal immigration? Mexico is not about to invade. This is useless to their mission. If they are going to build it and hand it of to border patrol, then Congress should fund it with the border patrols budget. Which they won’t, because this is as useless as a physical wall. So funding it with the money taxpayers allocated for the DoD is the definition of corruption.

erikpukinskis 7y ago

No it’s not, the most basic responsibility of national defense is stopping invading armies. Or maybe it’s dealing with the other nuclear powers. Stopping people coming over the border to be residents is probably not in the top 10 of national defense priorities. Honestly, as a matter of policy I don’t think it’s even something we are trying to do since immigration is so good for GDP, and nothing else really matters as much as growing GDP.

CapricornNoble 7y ago
>>>No it’s not, the most basic responsibility of national defense is stopping invading armies. And where do you intend to stop the invading armies, if not....at your border? >>>Stopping people coming over the border to be residents is probably not in the top 10 of national defense priorities. Well, let's take a look at the 2018 National Defense Strategy: https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2018-National-Defense-Strategy-Summary.pdf https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2018-Nation... Page 4, Defense Objectives, first line: -Defending the homeland from attack That's vague enough to cover infiltration of terrorist organizations across the border.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  You would stop invading armies everywhere, at the border, inside the border, in their homeland and the lands of their allies, in the borders of your own allies, anywhere. Do you imagine border patrol plays a key strategic role in war? What would be an example of that from history?
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    >>>You would stop invading armies everywhere, at the border, inside the border, in their homeland and the lands of their allies, in the borders of your own allies, anywhere. "Defend everywhere" makes for a very poor Commander's Intent or Mission Statement. If you are defending "inside the border"...you've already failed at stopping your adversary AT the border. It also violates almost half of the Principles of War (mass, objective, economy of force, simplicity). Reference Appendix B of [6]. >>>Do you imagine border patrol plays a key strategic role in war? What would be an example of that from history? From[1]: "Pakistani patrols began patrolling in territory controlled by India in January 1965, which was followed by attacks by both countries on each other's posts on 8 April 1965.[44][45] Initially involving border police from both nations, the disputed area soon witnessed intermittent skirmishes between the countries' armed forces." Re: [2][3]These Soviet-Japanese border conflicts would have 2nd and 3rd order effects on military doctrine, development, and strategic focus (the Japanese stopped poking the Bear and focused on China). The Soviets gained some confidence in their operational doctrine and gained confidence fighting the Japanese (who they last fought against, and lost to, in the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War). Reference [4] describes how the Soviets managed border security during their Afghanistan war. Reference [5] has a short section on "Border Security in Contemporary Counterinsurgency" to summarize border control issues from Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq. It particularly points out the significant political ramifications of cross-border insurgents and counter-insurgency operations. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol [4]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2015.1030276 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2015.10... [5]https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA503298 https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA503298 [6]https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/MCPEL/Electronic-Library-Display/Article/1323621/mcdp-1-0-w-ch1-3 https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/MCPEL/Electronic-L...