3 ms·

Try to think in terms of individuals, not nations. As for your sovereignty - it ends outside of your condo - you can't restrict someone from Oklahoma to move to

by zerr 7y ago

Try to think in terms of individuals, not nations. As for your sovereignty - it ends outside of your condo - you can't restrict someone from Oklahoma to move to SF.

neetdeth 7y ago
I prefer to think in terms of nations. There is no such thing as a sovereign individual. Unless you refer to the Libertarian cranks hassling cops on YouTube. In practice, nations can restrict people from moving if they choose to. Perhaps mine won't, but China certainly will. The reason, by the way, that Oklahoma and California can't restrict migration between them is that US states are not sovereign. The original colonies ceded essential parts of their sovereignty to form a national federal government. This is US history 101.
CapricornNoble 7y ago
>>> As for your sovereignty - it ends outside of your condo Why do you have sovereignty over your condo? Why can't I express my right to sleep on your couch, regardless of your consent? If you can express access control rights over a particular piece of territory or property that you consider your own, then why can't a collective group of people also express access control rights over their common, government-managed and administered property/territory?
- zerr 7y ago
  To eliminate the birth lottery. Remember, we are talking about the reasons - restricting the movement of someone only because he/she was born in the "wrong" coordinates on the map (and in the "wrong" time) is simply inhuman.
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    I'm slightly confused regarding your position, are you seeking open borders, or solely the elimination of birthright citizenship? I think there's enough responses in the thread regarding open borders that I won't belabor that point again. To the question of birthright citizenship, I'd probably be ok with eliminating it if we replaced it with service-based citizenship a la Starship Troopers (to include volunteering in the Peace Corps, volunteer firefighting, and maybe law enforcement). But it leads to the question of: if people (including native-born ones) don't meet the citizenship requirements, do they become stateless persons? Do we deport them? To where?
    - zerr 7y ago
      There are many angles/perspectives. Lets consider two categories for whom it is declared that we need them or they are allowed to enter: high-skilled workforce and refugees. We all know (here at HN) about the huge bureaucracy and obstacles when it comes to work permits. As for the refugees - everyone declares that they are allowed to enter, but in order to qualify for such status they need to be [almost] drown in the sea or [almost] killed at the border. https://www.liberties.eu/en/news/why-refugees-do-not-take-the-plane/16529 https://www.liberties.eu/en/news/why-refugees-do-not-take-th... https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2016/02/11/why-dont-refugees-fly/ https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2016/02/11/why-dont-refugees-fly/
      - CapricornNoble 7y ago
        So....all of the problems you've mentioned, and they ARE legitimate issues....can be resolved via means other than eliminating birthright citizenship, or adopting open borders. So can we agree to attempt implementing other measures and policies first before jumping to a drastic and likely highly-disruptive policy shift? >>>but in order to qualify for such status they need to be [almost] drown in the sea or [almost] killed at the border. There's not much we can do about natural geography. I'm not sure what alternative course of action is suggested in the case of, say, Cuban or Haitian refugees attempting access by boat. Secondly, no one is "almost killing" refugees that show up at designated legal points of entry to the country. Finally, anyone other than Mexican citizens attempting to seek asylum/refugee status by crossing the US-Mexico border is probably in error (I wouldn't go so far as to say "not acting in good faith"). Consider this from: [1] "Once refugees or asylum seekers have found a safe place and protection of a state or territory outside their territory of origin they are discouraged from leaving again and seeking protection in another country." In other words, Hondurans/Guatamalans/etc... should not be transiting Mexico to seek refugee status in the US to begin with.[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Restriction_of_onward_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Restriction_of_onward_... [2]https://www.unhcr.org/3c064aab4.html https://www.unhcr.org/3c064aab4.html
Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
But in the physical reality that we live in, individuals don't exist "on their own", they don't exist as completely separate entities. They have a lot of personal thoughts and experiences, but they also have a lot of traits that are predetermined by their culture, family, education, nation, society values of their immediate surrounding etc. It is just not honest to only treat people as individuals when there are obviously parts of them which are decided by the nation. So that's why people think in nations.

by zerr 7y ago

Try to think in terms of individuals, not nations. As for your sovereignty - it ends outside of your condo - you can't restrict someone from Oklahoma to move to SF.

neetdeth 7y ago

I prefer to think in terms of nations. There is no such thing as a sovereign individual. Unless you refer to the Libertarian cranks hassling cops on YouTube. In practice, nations can restrict people from moving if they choose to. Perhaps mine won't, but China certainly will. The reason, by the way, that Oklahoma and California can't restrict migration between them is that US states are not sovereign. The original colonies ceded essential parts of their sovereignty to form a national federal government. This is US history 101.

CapricornNoble 7y ago

>>> As for your sovereignty - it ends outside of your condo Why do you have sovereignty over your condo? Why can't I express my right to sleep on your couch, regardless of your consent? If you can express access control rights over a particular piece of territory or property that you consider your own, then why can't a collective group of people also express access control rights over their common, government-managed and administered property/territory?

zerr 7y ago
To eliminate the birth lottery. Remember, we are talking about the reasons - restricting the movement of someone only because he/she was born in the "wrong" coordinates on the map (and in the "wrong" time) is simply inhuman.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  I'm slightly confused regarding your position, are you seeking open borders, or solely the elimination of birthright citizenship? I think there's enough responses in the thread regarding open borders that I won't belabor that point again. To the question of birthright citizenship, I'd probably be ok with eliminating it if we replaced it with service-based citizenship a la Starship Troopers (to include volunteering in the Peace Corps, volunteer firefighting, and maybe law enforcement). But it leads to the question of: if people (including native-born ones) don't meet the citizenship requirements, do they become stateless persons? Do we deport them? To where?
  - zerr 7y ago
    There are many angles/perspectives. Lets consider two categories for whom it is declared that we need them or they are allowed to enter: high-skilled workforce and refugees. We all know (here at HN) about the huge bureaucracy and obstacles when it comes to work permits. As for the refugees - everyone declares that they are allowed to enter, but in order to qualify for such status they need to be [almost] drown in the sea or [almost] killed at the border. https://www.liberties.eu/en/news/why-refugees-do-not-take-the-plane/16529 https://www.liberties.eu/en/news/why-refugees-do-not-take-th... https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2016/02/11/why-dont-refugees-fly/ https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2016/02/11/why-dont-refugees-fly/
    - CapricornNoble 7y ago
      So....all of the problems you've mentioned, and they ARE legitimate issues....can be resolved via means other than eliminating birthright citizenship, or adopting open borders. So can we agree to attempt implementing other measures and policies first before jumping to a drastic and likely highly-disruptive policy shift? >>>but in order to qualify for such status they need to be [almost] drown in the sea or [almost] killed at the border. There's not much we can do about natural geography. I'm not sure what alternative course of action is suggested in the case of, say, Cuban or Haitian refugees attempting access by boat. Secondly, no one is "almost killing" refugees that show up at designated legal points of entry to the country. Finally, anyone other than Mexican citizens attempting to seek asylum/refugee status by crossing the US-Mexico border is probably in error (I wouldn't go so far as to say "not acting in good faith"). Consider this from: [1] "Once refugees or asylum seekers have found a safe place and protection of a state or territory outside their territory of origin they are discouraged from leaving again and seeking protection in another country." In other words, Hondurans/Guatamalans/etc... should not be transiting Mexico to seek refugee status in the US to begin with.[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Restriction_of_onward_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Restriction_of_onward_... [2]https://www.unhcr.org/3c064aab4.html https://www.unhcr.org/3c064aab4.html

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago

But in the physical reality that we live in, individuals don't exist "on their own", they don't exist as completely separate entities. They have a lot of personal thoughts and experiences, but they also have a lot of traits that are predetermined by their culture, family, education, nation, society values of their immediate surrounding etc. It is just not honest to only treat people as individuals when there are obviously parts of them which are decided by the nation. So that's why people think in nations.