5 ms·

There is a step 4: pay exorbitant tax rates.

by archie2 7y ago

c0nducktr 7y ago
Incorrect. Americans spend twice as much for healthcare as other first world countries.
- archie2 7y ago
  The US government already spends at least 10k per capita on healthcare - without even having a socialized medecine. More than double that of Canada at 4.8k per capita. The United States is not a free market healthcare system - it's literally the worst parts of both capitalist and socialized systems with none of the benefits of either. Also: I am Canadian, I spent nearly 50% of my earned income last year on just taxes. I also live in the most expensive city in the country. 90% of my medical expenses I've had in the past 10 years came from private practices that I paid out of pocket with a smidgen of private insurance that cushioned the blow a bit. The Canadian system is nowhere near as great as ignorant Americans like to believe.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    I grew up in Canada, have family there I visit regularly and live in America. The tax rate in California top marginal is higher than Ontario and yet one includes healthcare. You don’t think you can spent 50% of your marginal income on taxes in California? I think with the state taxes no longer deductible it’s closer to 55%. I’ve only ever had great interactions with OHIP.
    - archie2 7y ago
      You couldn't pay me to step foot in California.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        Trust me with the amount I make they could.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  So he's incorrect because you think if we socialize medicine what we spend now will go down?
  - Mandys23 7y ago
    He’s incorrect because he has misquoted the evidence. Canada’s wait time data is restricted to medically necessary but non-emergent procedures. It is inaccurate to say that millions of people are dying while waiting for treatment. The average wait time for a cancer patient to be seen is 3 weeks. Average. Remember, not everyone with cancer is dying. I appreciate the value of debate, but i ask that you please do your homework before you start citing the evidence
DanBC 7y ago
When you remove all private insurance payments for health the US still spends more than other countries. The US government pays huge amounts for healthcare for lousy outcomes.
- archie2 7y ago
  The problem is that the government is paying for healthcare in the first place.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    The private payment seems to be very expensive for not great outcomes. Can you describe some aspect of US healthcare that you think is good?
Joakal 7y ago
Is there a story of poor people getting bankrupted by taxes anywhere in the world that has socialized healthcare?
- jjeaff 7y ago
  No, but there are stories of brain drain and capital flight as the wealthy move themselves and other businesses elsewhere to avoid exhorbitant taxes.
- archie2 7y ago
  Different systems have different problems. In Canada, some people die due to wait times for treatable conditions, or are forced to wait so long that their condition worsens to be beyond repair and they are permanently debilitated. Over 50k people leave Canada per year to get their healthcare in the United States instead.
  - rosser 7y ago
    The trope that wait times are materially worse in single-payer systems is precisely that: a trope. You do not have to dig hard to find examples of wait-times measured in months to get diagnostic procedures scheduled, and where I live — the San Francisco Bay Area — the wait time for an initial consultation with, e.g., a dermatologist has been about the same, for as long as I've lived here. I know doctors who work in hospitals who've had to wait months for a breast cancer scan. A thing that sucks in both systems can not legitimately be used to argue against only one of them.
    - archie2 7y ago
      That's because California is a terribly run state, and one third of your population is on Medi-Cal. You literally have the same problems as Canada.
      - rosser 7y ago
        O...kay? So, how about all of the not-California parts of the US that have the same kinds of problems (which is, last I checked, more or less "all of them")? Because, the thing is, only one of my examples was, you know, from California.
tim333 7y ago
Ok you have to pay tax but the cost is usually far less than the US system.
- archie2 7y ago
  I prefer not to have beaureaucrats decide how I spend my money. I've had a relative with a treatable condition wait so long for a surgery that her condition worsened and it couldn't be fixed and now she is permanently physically disabled.
  - Paperweight 7y ago
    They do the best they can with the budget they're given. Private hospitals and health insurance are still allowed. Here in Canada, every public hospital still has a billing department for the uninsured & those with private insurance (foreigners, etc.) (I wonder if you can opt to pay to "skip the queue" here?)
    - archie2 7y ago
      What you're talking (skipping the queue) about is a two-tiered system, which I would be in-favor of but it is taboo to even bring it up in Canada (or at least, that has been my experience).
      - tim333 7y ago
        I'm in the UK and we have private and the NHS along side which kind of works. The NHS can be a bit rubbish in terms of long waits and the like.
gerbilly 7y ago
Yeah sure. I once worked in the US and in Canada (Connecticut) in the same year. My tax rate was lower in Canada for the same salary.
- archie2 7y ago
  I paid 45% of my income in taxes last year alone. For comparison in my income bracket: Ontario income tax rate: 12.16% Canada federal tax rate: 26% Employment Insurance and Social Security are deducted seperately and made up the rest of my deductions. Connecticut state income tax rate: 5.50% US federal tax: 22% Unless social security rates are worse than Canada, I don't see how your situation is possible.
Swenrekcah 7y ago
I live in a European country with a public health care system. The lowest tax bracket is ~34% and the highest ~44%. However due to a minimum below which no taxes are paid and other features, the effective rax rate for a $35k salary is ~15%. For a $90k salary it’s about 32%. A median salary is about $70k. This is excluding pension (the employer pays that on top to a pension fund). Public services are pretty good and not expensive for me, they are even cheaper for people in lower income levels. (Putting a kid in kindergarten is about $100-200/month for example) If you take everything into account, I suspect it’s the US system is a much worse deal for everyone except the top 5-10%.
thaumaturgy 7y ago
This argument is long, long past its expiration date. While the US by some measurements has a lower overall tax rate than other developed countries [1], the difference between us and, say, Canada, who enjoy high quality socialized health care, is far from "exorbitant". There's a very reasonable argument for considering all of the consequences of our systematically broken health care system as a "tax" -- it amounts to a massive financial and quality-of-life burden for most Americans. Health care in the United States is more expensive than in other developed countries for identical procedures [2]. Medical costs are the worst kind of lottery, where an overnight visit for tonsillitis can get you a nice little $100,000 bill [8]. Do you not consider that a tax? Why not? Medical bills account for 60% of bankruptcies in the US [3]. High medical costs are literally causing people to commit suicide [4] or to die of entirely preventable causes [5] while others just forego care entirely [9]. For those people who do jump through the hoops to get private medical insurance, there are entire bureaucracies dedicated to denying claims [6]. There are so many perverse incentives involved that some doctors are taking it into their own hands to try to lower medication costs, and pharmaceutical companies are responding by tripling the costs of the medication [7]. Meanwhile tons and tons of Americans stay in jobs they don't like just to maintain their employer-sponsored health insurance [10], strangling their wages and preventing positions from being opened up to more enthusiastic employees. These things are all taxes. They are taxes on American society, impacting all of us. Anybody that's opposed to socialized health care "because muh taxes" is defending this system, this embarrassing, broken, corrupt system that endangers and kills countless people every year and acts as a massive multi-faceted anchor on our economy. [1]: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe... [2]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/15/why-an-mri-costs-1080-in-america-and-280-in-france/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/15/why-a... [3]: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bill... [4]: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/co21rt/elderly_couple_found_dead_in_apparent/ https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/co21rt/elderly_couple... -- linking to Reddit here because there are a lot of comments there worth reading. [5]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shane-patrick-boyle-died-after-starting-a-gofundme-campaign-for-insulin/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shane-patrick-boyle-died-a... [6]: https://splinternews.com/a-glimpse-into-the-bureaucratic-hell-of-denying-health-1823560356 https://splinternews.com/a-glimpse-into-the-bureaucratic-hel... [7]: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/doctors-tried-to-lower-148k-cancer-drug-cost-makers-triple-price-of-pill/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/doctors-tried-to-low... [8]: https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ngngy/merry_fucking_christmas_what_to_expect_for_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ngngy/merry_fucking_ch... [9]: https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/06/09/sick-of-high-healthcare-costs-millions-of-american.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/06/09/sick-of-high-healt... [10]: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/13/fear-over-healthcare-locks-americans-jobs-throttles-creativity https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/13/fear-o...

There is a step 4: pay exorbitant tax rates.

c0nducktr 7y ago

Incorrect. Americans spend twice as much for healthcare as other first world countries.

archie2 7y ago
The US government already spends at least 10k per capita on healthcare - without even having a socialized medecine. More than double that of Canada at 4.8k per capita. The United States is not a free market healthcare system - it's literally the worst parts of both capitalist and socialized systems with none of the benefits of either. Also: I am Canadian, I spent nearly 50% of my earned income last year on just taxes. I also live in the most expensive city in the country. 90% of my medical expenses I've had in the past 10 years came from private practices that I paid out of pocket with a smidgen of private insurance that cushioned the blow a bit. The Canadian system is nowhere near as great as ignorant Americans like to believe.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  I grew up in Canada, have family there I visit regularly and live in America. The tax rate in California top marginal is higher than Ontario and yet one includes healthcare. You don’t think you can spent 50% of your marginal income on taxes in California? I think with the state taxes no longer deductible it’s closer to 55%. I’ve only ever had great interactions with OHIP.
  - archie2 7y ago
    You couldn't pay me to step foot in California.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Trust me with the amount I make they could.
jjeaff 7y ago
So he's incorrect because you think if we socialize medicine what we spend now will go down?
- Mandys23 7y ago
  He’s incorrect because he has misquoted the evidence. Canada’s wait time data is restricted to medically necessary but non-emergent procedures. It is inaccurate to say that millions of people are dying while waiting for treatment. The average wait time for a cancer patient to be seen is 3 weeks. Average. Remember, not everyone with cancer is dying. I appreciate the value of debate, but i ask that you please do your homework before you start citing the evidence

DanBC 7y ago

When you remove all private insurance payments for health the US still spends more than other countries. The US government pays huge amounts for healthcare for lousy outcomes.

archie2 7y ago
The problem is that the government is paying for healthcare in the first place.
- DanBC 7y ago
  The private payment seems to be very expensive for not great outcomes. Can you describe some aspect of US healthcare that you think is good?

Joakal 7y ago

Is there a story of poor people getting bankrupted by taxes anywhere in the world that has socialized healthcare?

jjeaff 7y ago
No, but there are stories of brain drain and capital flight as the wealthy move themselves and other businesses elsewhere to avoid exhorbitant taxes.
archie2 7y ago
Different systems have different problems. In Canada, some people die due to wait times for treatable conditions, or are forced to wait so long that their condition worsens to be beyond repair and they are permanently debilitated. Over 50k people leave Canada per year to get their healthcare in the United States instead.
- rosser 7y ago
  The trope that wait times are materially worse in single-payer systems is precisely that: a trope. You do not have to dig hard to find examples of wait-times measured in months to get diagnostic procedures scheduled, and where I live — the San Francisco Bay Area — the wait time for an initial consultation with, e.g., a dermatologist has been about the same, for as long as I've lived here. I know doctors who work in hospitals who've had to wait months for a breast cancer scan. A thing that sucks in both systems can not legitimately be used to argue against only one of them.
  - archie2 7y ago
    That's because California is a terribly run state, and one third of your population is on Medi-Cal. You literally have the same problems as Canada.
    - rosser 7y ago
      O...kay? So, how about all of the not-California parts of the US that have the same kinds of problems (which is, last I checked, more or less "all of them")? Because, the thing is, only one of my examples was, you know, from California.

tim333 7y ago

Ok you have to pay tax but the cost is usually far less than the US system.

archie2 7y ago
I prefer not to have beaureaucrats decide how I spend my money. I've had a relative with a treatable condition wait so long for a surgery that her condition worsened and it couldn't be fixed and now she is permanently physically disabled.
- Paperweight 7y ago
  They do the best they can with the budget they're given. Private hospitals and health insurance are still allowed. Here in Canada, every public hospital still has a billing department for the uninsured & those with private insurance (foreigners, etc.) (I wonder if you can opt to pay to "skip the queue" here?)
  - archie2 7y ago
    What you're talking (skipping the queue) about is a two-tiered system, which I would be in-favor of but it is taboo to even bring it up in Canada (or at least, that has been my experience).
    - tim333 7y ago
      I'm in the UK and we have private and the NHS along side which kind of works. The NHS can be a bit rubbish in terms of long waits and the like.

gerbilly 7y ago

Yeah sure. I once worked in the US and in Canada (Connecticut) in the same year. My tax rate was lower in Canada for the same salary.

archie2 7y ago
I paid 45% of my income in taxes last year alone. For comparison in my income bracket: Ontario income tax rate: 12.16% Canada federal tax rate: 26% Employment Insurance and Social Security are deducted seperately and made up the rest of my deductions. Connecticut state income tax rate: 5.50% US federal tax: 22% Unless social security rates are worse than Canada, I don't see how your situation is possible.

Swenrekcah 7y ago

I live in a European country with a public health care system. The lowest tax bracket is ~34% and the highest ~44%. However due to a minimum below which no taxes are paid and other features, the effective rax rate for a $35k salary is ~15%. For a $90k salary it’s about 32%. A median salary is about $70k. This is excluding pension (the employer pays that on top to a pension fund). Public services are pretty good and not expensive for me, they are even cheaper for people in lower income levels. (Putting a kid in kindergarten is about $100-200/month for example) If you take everything into account, I suspect it’s the US system is a much worse deal for everyone except the top 5-10%.

thaumaturgy 7y ago

This argument is long, long past its expiration date. While the US by some measurements has a lower overall tax rate than other developed countries [1], the difference between us and, say, Canada, who enjoy high quality socialized health care, is far from "exorbitant". There's a very reasonable argument for considering all of the consequences of our systematically broken health care system as a "tax" -- it amounts to a massive financial and quality-of-life burden for most Americans. Health care in the United States is more expensive than in other developed countries for identical procedures [2]. Medical costs are the worst kind of lottery, where an overnight visit for tonsillitis can get you a nice little $100,000 bill [8]. Do you not consider that a tax? Why not? Medical bills account for 60% of bankruptcies in the US [3]. High medical costs are literally causing people to commit suicide [4] or to die of entirely preventable causes [5] while others just forego care entirely [9]. For those people who do jump through the hoops to get private medical insurance, there are entire bureaucracies dedicated to denying claims [6]. There are so many perverse incentives involved that some doctors are taking it into their own hands to try to lower medication costs, and pharmaceutical companies are responding by tripling the costs of the medication [7]. Meanwhile tons and tons of Americans stay in jobs they don't like just to maintain their employer-sponsored health insurance [10], strangling their wages and preventing positions from being opened up to more enthusiastic employees. These things are all taxes. They are taxes on American society, impacting all of us. Anybody that's opposed to socialized health care "because muh taxes" is defending this system, this embarrassing, broken, corrupt system that endangers and kills countless people every year and acts as a massive multi-faceted anchor on our economy. [1]: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe... [2]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/15/why-an-mri-costs-1080-in-america-and-280-in-france/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/15/why-a... [3]: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bill... [4]: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/co21rt/elderly_couple_found_dead_in_apparent/ https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/co21rt/elderly_couple... -- linking to Reddit here because there are a lot of comments there worth reading. [5]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shane-patrick-boyle-died-after-starting-a-gofundme-campaign-for-insulin/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shane-patrick-boyle-died-a... [6]: https://splinternews.com/a-glimpse-into-the-bureaucratic-hell-of-denying-health-1823560356 https://splinternews.com/a-glimpse-into-the-bureaucratic-hel... [7]: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/doctors-tried-to-lower-148k-cancer-drug-cost-makers-triple-price-of-pill/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/doctors-tried-to-low... [8]: https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ngngy/merry_fucking_christmas_what_to_expect_for_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ngngy/merry_fucking_ch... [9]: https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/06/09/sick-of-high-healthcare-costs-millions-of-american.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/06/09/sick-of-high-healt... [10]: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/13/fear-over-healthcare-locks-americans-jobs-throttles-creativity https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/13/fear-o...