7 ms·

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has

by nickik 7y ago

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

dragonwriter 7y ago
> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  During Israel's founding everyone who was an established resident in the territories was eligible for and offered first-class citizenship in the new state. Local Muslims and Christians who opted-in have enjoyed more prosperity and political representation over the decades than any of Israel's neighbors. Many minorities serve as leaders in the government, military, and private industry. Israel's neighbors were the ones who encouraged Palestinian leaders to reject both citizenship and two-state solutions across multiple deal opportunities and instead opt for waging an endless violent rebellion. And when the coordinated wars were lost and the time came for offering aid, resources, and immigration opportunities - neighboring countries offered the Palestinians very little compared to the opportunities that Israel offers. They did not step up.
  - nickik 7y ago
    Yes the other arab states were morrons but there are millions of Palestinians living under Israeli control who not only lose their access to resources but also have no democratic representation at all.
    - endtime 7y ago
      The Palestinians have regular elections, not sure what you mean by no democratic representation.
    - amitport 7y ago
      They still act as morrons when they deny citizenship from the grandchildren of those who migrated from Israel 70+ years ago
- amitport 7y ago
  Completely sure it is not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > Completely sure it not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement." “A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: “1. negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state; “2. incitement to racism; “3. support of armed struggle, by a hostile state or a terrorist organization, against the State of Israel.” https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm
    - amitport 7y ago
      A party with an objective "negating the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state" is not the same as voicing disagreement. Almost half of the Knesset voted against 'Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' basic law, and many regularly voice disagreement with this definition.
      - nickik 7y ago
        When you can arbitrarly define who is part of that democratic state and who is not, it is not democracy. The Palestinans are living under the control of the Jewish state and they have no right to vote.
        amitport 7y ago
        That's not what being discussed in the above comments.
endtime 7y ago
Actually, Muslim Israelis can and do vote. Non-citizens obviously can't, like anywhere else. The Palestinians have their own elections and government(s). Putting aside the nuances of "Jewish state" and what that does or doesn't mean, if you go to Israel you will find a culture and a people far closer to American values than anywhere else in the region.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > you will find a culture and a people ... closer to American values than anywhere else in the region. Perhaps true, but these days Lebanon is up in the running. They do have a weird approach to "power sharing" in government, but it's not like Israel is free from its own sort of weirdness, as you've mentioned.
  - endtime 7y ago
    By "power sharing" are you referring to Hizballah? I hope it's not too controversial to say that they don't exactly share American values.

by nickik 7y ago

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.

drak0n1c 7y ago
During Israel's founding everyone who was an established resident in the territories was eligible for and offered first-class citizenship in the new state. Local Muslims and Christians who opted-in have enjoyed more prosperity and political representation over the decades than any of Israel's neighbors. Many minorities serve as leaders in the government, military, and private industry. Israel's neighbors were the ones who encouraged Palestinian leaders to reject both citizenship and two-state solutions across multiple deal opportunities and instead opt for waging an endless violent rebellion. And when the coordinated wars were lost and the time came for offering aid, resources, and immigration opportunities - neighboring countries offered the Palestinians very little compared to the opportunities that Israel offers. They did not step up.
- nickik 7y ago
  Yes the other arab states were morrons but there are millions of Palestinians living under Israeli control who not only lose their access to resources but also have no democratic representation at all.
  - endtime 7y ago
    The Palestinians have regular elections, not sure what you mean by no democratic representation.
  - amitport 7y ago
    They still act as morrons when they deny citizenship from the grandchildren of those who migrated from Israel 70+ years ago
amitport 7y ago
Completely sure it is not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Completely sure it not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement." “A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: “1. negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state; “2. incitement to racism; “3. support of armed struggle, by a hostile state or a terrorist organization, against the State of Israel.” https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm
  - amitport 7y ago
    A party with an objective "negating the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state" is not the same as voicing disagreement. Almost half of the Knesset voted against 'Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' basic law, and many regularly voice disagreement with this definition.
    - nickik 7y ago
      When you can arbitrarly define who is part of that democratic state and who is not, it is not democracy. The Palestinans are living under the control of the Jewish state and they have no right to vote.
      - amitport 7y ago
        That's not what being discussed in the above comments.

endtime 7y ago

Actually, Muslim Israelis can and do vote. Non-citizens obviously can't, like anywhere else. The Palestinians have their own elections and government(s). Putting aside the nuances of "Jewish state" and what that does or doesn't mean, if you go to Israel you will find a culture and a people far closer to American values than anywhere else in the region.

zozbot234 7y ago
> you will find a culture and a people ... closer to American values than anywhere else in the region. Perhaps true, but these days Lebanon is up in the running. They do have a weird approach to "power sharing" in government, but it's not like Israel is free from its own sort of weirdness, as you've mentioned.
- endtime 7y ago
  By "power sharing" are you referring to Hizballah? I hope it's not too controversial to say that they don't exactly share American values.