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>Servin said that while the new law was a significant victory, there was one other thing immigrants rights groups were concerned about. When several sheriffs’ d

>Servin said that while the new law was a significant victory, there was one other thing immigrants rights groups were concerned about. When several sheriffs’ departments canceled their contracts to house Ice detainees last year, instead of freeing the detainees, Ice moved many of them to prisons in Colorado and Hawaii. Is this something that people against private prisons believe...that they just release all the prisoners when they close the prison?

wilg 7y ago
Perhaps they are concerned that they'll end up in a private prison in another state.
mieseratte 7y ago
Many states have cut sentences in face of prison over-crowding, including California. So, yes, some people believe private-prisons are a useful tool to deal with over-crowding in state facilities and that the likely alternative is further reduced-sentence releases.
danaliv 7y ago
> Is this something that people against private prisons believe...that they just release all the prisoners when they close the prison? There are a few different strains of thought when it comes to opposition to private prisons, but I believe the common denominator is that they create a perverse incentive. They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better. So while there are definitely people who want these prisoners freed immediately, and even people who want prisons abolished altogether, getting the profit motive out of prisons would be a significant win regardless.
- vkou 7y ago
  > There are a few different strains of thought when it comes to opposition to private prisons, but I believe the common denominator is that they create a perverse incentive. They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better. The same criticism can be applied towards forced prison labour, and yet, it is explicitly permitted by the thirteenth amendment. (And is commonly used in state prisons.) Just because a profit incentive falls in the hands of the state's coffers, as opposed to some corporation, does not mean the incentive is not perverse.
  - Analemma_ 7y ago
    Forced prison labor should also be outlawed. Just because we haven't fixed every problem yet doesn't mean we shouldn't cheer improvements like this.
  - packet_nerd 7y ago
    Agreed. However, in terms of perverse economic incentives I think the private for-profit prisons are a much much larger problem than prison work programs. They are not bringing in anything on the scale of what private prison systems bring in from the government. Also, least a few people claim to have benefited personally from the work programs.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Prison profits are spent lobbying for tougher crime laws. Thus, unnecessarily harsh criminalization of behavior has a strong economic incentive. Having an incentive to turn citizens into criminals is bad for society.
  - lanevorockz 7y ago
    I wonder if you can raise evidence of unreasonable imprisonment. I completely agree that this can create a feedback loop that would be bad, ideally we should have a much more sophisticated system of rehabilitation. Maybe the problem lies on the state being too incompetent to even set metrics for third parties.
    - thomasmeeks 7y ago
      Non violent drug offenses is the example you’re looking for.
      - tathougies 7y ago
        All drug offenses are violent. Illegal drugs channel money into large organized crime syndicates that kill, torture, terrorize and maim people. Just because those people are brown, poor, and not Americans doesn't mean we should care less. If you ask me, we need substantially more drug enforcement. There are severe inequalities in how we police for drugs that often result in only the poor and marginalized locked up. We need to refocus our drug war on the rich and powerful and put them in jail to, to make things more equal.
        tenebrisalietum 7y ago
        X consumes a drug - This is not violent. Drug dealer Y kills someone to protect territory - This is violent. If X was willing to buy drugs from anyone, and/or if X would prefer to buy from a legal seller but none is available, Y is not the cause of the violence. Also, you can get locked up for smoking weed that you grew yourself and had no intention of selling. What of that?
- wetpaws 7y ago
  >They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better Not only would you want more prisoners, but you will also be interested in keeping them as long as possible (i.e. no parole) and pushing recidivism incidents to its maximum.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
soulofmischief 7y ago
What we believe is that a lack of private prisons will disincentivize new prisoners from being systematically introduced in an abusive fashion. More accountability. Releasing people like non-violent drug offenders is a separate issue.
- hbosch 7y ago
  The comment above specifically referenced this: > instead of freeing the detainees, Ice moved many of them to prisons in Colorado and Hawaii Of course, no one could have rationally believed that these people -- considered to be lawbreakers -- would just get FREED automatically. That would be an idiotic assumption. And yet, the article is worded as if there actually were people who believed it.
tdb7893 7y ago
No, people don't believe that people will just be let free.
sremani 7y ago
The idea that a special interest that is financially powerful and interested in high prison population, may inject wrong incentives into the society is real and understandable. But we also have other side of the equation - politicians willing to expand definition of "crime" to placate people's fears and emotions combined with prosecutors willing to throw the book to make and example and build a career on it, all while not appropriately funding the prisons. California's real problem is MASSIVE prison population, where you have to BECOME a RACIST to survive the prison gangs. Prison overcrowd is a feature of CA prison system. I wish they ordered their priorities right and built enough prisons to house the population safely. This is one single step in a series of steps to get anywhere positive. Knowing their Governor and his political expedient past, I am skeptical.
- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  Wouldn't the better solution to these priorities be shrinking down those definitions of crime, and not filling up the prisons we've got, rather than building bigger ones?
  - chroma 7y ago
    Only 1 in 5 prisoners are there for nonviolent drug crimes. You can't reduce the prison population by more than that unless you want to repeal laws against fraud, burglary, rape, assault, or murder. One alternative would be to reduce sentences for those crimes, but good luck getting the public to vote for any politician who would propose such a thing. See https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html for some interesting stats on US prisons.
    - kazagistar 7y ago
      Or improve policies that lead to lower rates of those crimes.
- lukev 7y ago
  Rather than building enough prisons, what if they just set target incarceration rates, built capacity for that, and then required that the justice system sentence and parole accordingly? There's no reason to have over half a percentage of point of the entire population in prison. Almost no other country in the world does this. Capping incarceration rates not only prevents prison overcrowding, but is a forcing function for policy changes that actually lower crime, as well as alternative sentencing options for non-violent crime (which almost always have better outcomes.)
happytoexplain 7y ago
The distance from the quote to your question seems like a pretty large leap.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
bsder 7y ago
> Is this something that people against private prisons believe...that they just release all the prisoners when they close the prison? No. The goal of wiping out the private prisons is simply that profit motive in the justice system is always an inherent conflict of interest. The fact that ICE is getting smashed is just a side benefit. Adelanto is almost 2,000 people and is the second biggest detention center for ICE. Who knows, ICE may indeed free these prisoners rather than spend the money to transport them to facilities that can't house them anyway. Wouldn't that be a nice benefit?
asdfgasd 7y ago
> ICE detainees > release all the prisoners ICE detainees aren't prisoners. ICE are facists holding people in concentrations camps. They should absolutely be released.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into political flamewar. We've had to ask you this before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - anarchodev 7y ago
    I saw their comment and frankly I think it's a perfectly reasonable sentiment. That objecting to incarceration practices in America is viewed as contributing to a "political flamewar" by the mods here is surprising to me.
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      "[F]acists" and "concentration camps" are intentionally incendiary and do not promote a constructive discussion. There is nothing reasonable about that wording at all.
      - asdfgasd 7y ago
        It's not intentionally incendiary when it's largely true.
      - anarchodev 7y ago
        These are descriptive terms for what currently exist in the US (and have existed before in the US). If hearing them causes you to feel emotions that don’t allow you to engage in civil discussion I think it’s worth investigating why that is —- not insisting we find less precise terminology.
        asdfgasd 7y ago
whyenot 7y ago
immigration detainees and prisoners are two different groups.
- gtfratteus 7y ago
  If they're in prison, they're prisoners.

wilg 7y ago

Perhaps they are concerned that they'll end up in a private prison in another state.

mieseratte 7y ago

Many states have cut sentences in face of prison over-crowding, including California. So, yes, some people believe private-prisons are a useful tool to deal with over-crowding in state facilities and that the likely alternative is further reduced-sentence releases.

danaliv 7y ago

> Is this something that people against private prisons believe...that they just release all the prisoners when they close the prison? There are a few different strains of thought when it comes to opposition to private prisons, but I believe the common denominator is that they create a perverse incentive. They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better. So while there are definitely people who want these prisoners freed immediately, and even people who want prisons abolished altogether, getting the profit motive out of prisons would be a significant win regardless.

vkou 7y ago
> There are a few different strains of thought when it comes to opposition to private prisons, but I believe the common denominator is that they create a perverse incentive. They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better. The same criticism can be applied towards forced prison labour, and yet, it is explicitly permitted by the thirteenth amendment. (And is commonly used in state prisons.) Just because a profit incentive falls in the hands of the state's coffers, as opposed to some corporation, does not mean the incentive is not perverse.
- Analemma_ 7y ago
  Forced prison labor should also be outlawed. Just because we haven't fixed every problem yet doesn't mean we shouldn't cheer improvements like this.
- packet_nerd 7y ago
  Agreed. However, in terms of perverse economic incentives I think the private for-profit prisons are a much much larger problem than prison work programs. They are not bringing in anything on the scale of what private prison systems bring in from the government. Also, least a few people claim to have benefited personally from the work programs.
cwkoss 7y ago
Prison profits are spent lobbying for tougher crime laws. Thus, unnecessarily harsh criminalization of behavior has a strong economic incentive. Having an incentive to turn citizens into criminals is bad for society.
- lanevorockz 7y ago
  I wonder if you can raise evidence of unreasonable imprisonment. I completely agree that this can create a feedback loop that would be bad, ideally we should have a much more sophisticated system of rehabilitation. Maybe the problem lies on the state being too incompetent to even set metrics for third parties.
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    Non violent drug offenses is the example you’re looking for.
    - tathougies 7y ago
      All drug offenses are violent. Illegal drugs channel money into large organized crime syndicates that kill, torture, terrorize and maim people. Just because those people are brown, poor, and not Americans doesn't mean we should care less. If you ask me, we need substantially more drug enforcement. There are severe inequalities in how we police for drugs that often result in only the poor and marginalized locked up. We need to refocus our drug war on the rich and powerful and put them in jail to, to make things more equal.
      - tenebrisalietum 7y ago
        X consumes a drug - This is not violent. Drug dealer Y kills someone to protect territory - This is violent. If X was willing to buy drugs from anyone, and/or if X would prefer to buy from a legal seller but none is available, Y is not the cause of the violence. Also, you can get locked up for smoking weed that you grew yourself and had no intention of selling. What of that?
wetpaws 7y ago
>They turn prisons into businesses—the more prisoners, the better Not only would you want more prisoners, but you will also be interested in keeping them as long as possible (i.e. no parole) and pushing recidivism incidents to its maximum.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

soulofmischief 7y ago

What we believe is that a lack of private prisons will disincentivize new prisoners from being systematically introduced in an abusive fashion. More accountability. Releasing people like non-violent drug offenders is a separate issue.

hbosch 7y ago
The comment above specifically referenced this: > instead of freeing the detainees, Ice moved many of them to prisons in Colorado and Hawaii Of course, no one could have rationally believed that these people -- considered to be lawbreakers -- would just get FREED automatically. That would be an idiotic assumption. And yet, the article is worded as if there actually were people who believed it.

tdb7893 7y ago

No, people don't believe that people will just be let free.

sremani 7y ago

The idea that a special interest that is financially powerful and interested in high prison population, may inject wrong incentives into the society is real and understandable. But we also have other side of the equation - politicians willing to expand definition of "crime" to placate people's fears and emotions combined with prosecutors willing to throw the book to make and example and build a career on it, all while not appropriately funding the prisons. California's real problem is MASSIVE prison population, where you have to BECOME a RACIST to survive the prison gangs. Prison overcrowd is a feature of CA prison system. I wish they ordered their priorities right and built enough prisons to house the population safely. This is one single step in a series of steps to get anywhere positive. Knowing their Governor and his political expedient past, I am skeptical.

pavel_lishin 7y ago
Wouldn't the better solution to these priorities be shrinking down those definitions of crime, and not filling up the prisons we've got, rather than building bigger ones?
- chroma 7y ago
  Only 1 in 5 prisoners are there for nonviolent drug crimes. You can't reduce the prison population by more than that unless you want to repeal laws against fraud, burglary, rape, assault, or murder. One alternative would be to reduce sentences for those crimes, but good luck getting the public to vote for any politician who would propose such a thing. See https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html for some interesting stats on US prisons.
  - kazagistar 7y ago
    Or improve policies that lead to lower rates of those crimes.
lukev 7y ago
Rather than building enough prisons, what if they just set target incarceration rates, built capacity for that, and then required that the justice system sentence and parole accordingly? There's no reason to have over half a percentage of point of the entire population in prison. Almost no other country in the world does this. Capping incarceration rates not only prevents prison overcrowding, but is a forcing function for policy changes that actually lower crime, as well as alternative sentencing options for non-violent crime (which almost always have better outcomes.)

happytoexplain 7y ago

The distance from the quote to your question seems like a pretty large leap.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

bsder 7y ago

> Is this something that people against private prisons believe...that they just release all the prisoners when they close the prison? No. The goal of wiping out the private prisons is simply that profit motive in the justice system is always an inherent conflict of interest. The fact that ICE is getting smashed is just a side benefit. Adelanto is almost 2,000 people and is the second biggest detention center for ICE. Who knows, ICE may indeed free these prisoners rather than spend the money to transport them to facilities that can't house them anyway. Wouldn't that be a nice benefit?

asdfgasd 7y ago

> ICE detainees > release all the prisoners ICE detainees aren't prisoners. ICE are facists holding people in concentrations camps. They should absolutely be released.

dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into political flamewar. We've had to ask you this before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- anarchodev 7y ago
  I saw their comment and frankly I think it's a perfectly reasonable sentiment. That objecting to incarceration practices in America is viewed as contributing to a "political flamewar" by the mods here is surprising to me.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    "[F]acists" and "concentration camps" are intentionally incendiary and do not promote a constructive discussion. There is nothing reasonable about that wording at all.
    - asdfgasd 7y ago
      It's not intentionally incendiary when it's largely true.
    - anarchodev 7y ago
      These are descriptive terms for what currently exist in the US (and have existed before in the US). If hearing them causes you to feel emotions that don’t allow you to engage in civil discussion I think it’s worth investigating why that is —- not insisting we find less precise terminology.
      - asdfgasd 7y ago

whyenot 7y ago

immigration detainees and prisoners are two different groups.

gtfratteus 7y ago
If they're in prison, they're prisoners.