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I am amused this is still a topic of discussion in America. Visit China sometime, electric motor scooters (larger than the kids versions we have here[1]) and m

I am amused this is still a topic of discussion in America. Visit China sometime, electric motor scooters (larger than the kids versions we have here[1]) and motorbikes are everywhere, the large majority of small vehicles on the road there are now electric. It is super nice, the streets are far cleaner and quieter than just a few years ago. One huge benefit China has is an existing infrastructure for smaller vehicles, there is either a grade separation or a fence that differentiates small vehicles from larger ones. On narrow urban streets speeds are lower so the separation is not needed. This is actually a great example of how making streets smaller can increase throughput, if bikes + electric bikes + motor scooters + cars all share the same road, more traffic can fit on the street once people who would be in individual occupancy cars feel comfortable moving to more space efficient forms of transportation. Meanwhile in America we paint a tiny narrow bike lane on the road and pretend the white line is going to stop accidents. Bonus: Electric motorbikes / motor scooters can have canopies on top, helping alleviate some of the weather issues. [1] https://wiztem.en.made-in-china.com/product/hygJHVvFMlcN/China-Best-Selling-EEC-Approved-1500W-60V-Electric-Scooter-Harley-City-Coco.html https://wiztem.en.made-in-china.com/product/hygJHVvFMlcN/Chi...

blacksmith_tb 7y ago
I like watching the Cambrian Explosion of electric vehicles unfolding in China now, though it seems like a lot of them will not last. I think it would fair to say that bike lanes in the US are intended more for ease of litigation than safety (but that's true of a lot of US traffic infrastructure). The mix of traffic making things safer sounds a lot like a Woonerf[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf
- com2kid 7y ago
  > I like watching the Cambrian Explosion of electric vehicles unfolding in China now, though it seems like a lot of them will not last. Most of the companies probably won't, but the changes to the market place will. Everyone is used to quiet comfortable electric small vehicles now. Watching hundreds of mothers swarm a school to pick their kids up on electric motor scooters really drilled that home for me. Especially contrasting that to the utter nightmare in America of a similar number of swarming SUVs! American schools end up wasting space for "pick-up zones", in contrast it isn't even a concept in China, an electric motor scooter is what, 4x-5x as space efficient?
olalonde 7y ago
It's great overall but I do miss being able to walk on the sidewalk without having to worry about getting hit by those Meituan delivery scooters. At least here in Shenzhen, bicycles and small electric scooters are required to share the sidewalk with pedestrians.
- brandmeyer 7y ago
  Maybe this is regional? In metro Shanghai, the electric scooters usually have a dedicated lane. In the Pudong area (a ritzy part of downtown Shanghai), electric scooters are forbidden entirely. I got the distinct impression that using these scooters was a type of class distinction.
dmix 7y ago
> Meanwhile in America we paint a tiny narrow bike lane on the road and pretend the white line is going to stop accidents. Separated bike lanes can be equally dangerous and more inconvenient for cyclists. If you can swing around a slow/stopped hazard then it’s not much better. It’s only good for the newbie riders who are scared of the road. The best arrangements are sharrows where both parties are sharing the road with constant reminders to cars to be aware of their surrounds and respect cyclists. Otherwise I 100% agree with you regarding electric vehicles.
- patthebunny 7y ago
  You know what’s dangerous for cyclists? Other drivers.
- com2kid 7y ago
  Depends on the speed limit. Around here, on larger streets the speed limit is 35 mph. Riding a bike is considered a rather dangerous activity. Drop the speed limit to 20 mph and maybe sharing the road becomes possible. Seeing how other countries do it though, true separated bike lanes are the best. I agree that studies show painted bike lanes are actually more dangerous, but a physical barrier between cars and bikes is going to be the safest solution.
  - NewsAware 7y ago
    The dangerous place is not the straight road, but crossings where cars turn right and hit cyclists going straight. So the way these spots are handled is way more important than painted line vs fence.
    - com2kid 7y ago
      This is true, but putting the stopping line for cars back a few feet largely fixes this. (Source: HN post a few months ago ;)
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  >Separated bike lanes can be equally dangerous and more inconvenient for cyclists. I'm no expert, but I googled "protected bike lane safety statistics" and every result is touting the safety benefits. The results with reliable looking numbers are reporting injury reductions of 30-90%.
alberth 7y ago
Many massively large companies today, simply saw traction for a particular product/service in one country (market) and then adapted it to their own country (market). What might be a new "innovation" in our country could be old hat in another. Nothing wrong with that at all.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
the large majority of small vehicles on the road there are now electric. Maybe in some parts of China like Shenzhen that are mandating it, but gas powered cars are still outselling electric cars 25 to 1 in China, so it will be a long time before electric cars make up a majority.
- CarVac 7y ago
  >small vehicles There are far more electric scooters on the road than there are cars.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    Citation? It is basically impossible to be true, as cars still and scooters sold about the same number in China last year, but you also have the last two decade of cars sold on the road.
    - CarVac 7y ago
      You might be right about there being more cars in the rural areas. In cities, it's no contest, there are hordes of scooters and only some cars. And 99% of the scooters were electric, in my experience.

blacksmith_tb 7y ago

I like watching the Cambrian Explosion of electric vehicles unfolding in China now, though it seems like a lot of them will not last. I think it would fair to say that bike lanes in the US are intended more for ease of litigation than safety (but that's true of a lot of US traffic infrastructure). The mix of traffic making things safer sounds a lot like a Woonerf[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

com2kid 7y ago
> I like watching the Cambrian Explosion of electric vehicles unfolding in China now, though it seems like a lot of them will not last. Most of the companies probably won't, but the changes to the market place will. Everyone is used to quiet comfortable electric small vehicles now. Watching hundreds of mothers swarm a school to pick their kids up on electric motor scooters really drilled that home for me. Especially contrasting that to the utter nightmare in America of a similar number of swarming SUVs! American schools end up wasting space for "pick-up zones", in contrast it isn't even a concept in China, an electric motor scooter is what, 4x-5x as space efficient?

olalonde 7y ago

It's great overall but I do miss being able to walk on the sidewalk without having to worry about getting hit by those Meituan delivery scooters. At least here in Shenzhen, bicycles and small electric scooters are required to share the sidewalk with pedestrians.

brandmeyer 7y ago
Maybe this is regional? In metro Shanghai, the electric scooters usually have a dedicated lane. In the Pudong area (a ritzy part of downtown Shanghai), electric scooters are forbidden entirely. I got the distinct impression that using these scooters was a type of class distinction.

dmix 7y ago

> Meanwhile in America we paint a tiny narrow bike lane on the road and pretend the white line is going to stop accidents. Separated bike lanes can be equally dangerous and more inconvenient for cyclists. If you can swing around a slow/stopped hazard then it’s not much better. It’s only good for the newbie riders who are scared of the road. The best arrangements are sharrows where both parties are sharing the road with constant reminders to cars to be aware of their surrounds and respect cyclists. Otherwise I 100% agree with you regarding electric vehicles.

patthebunny 7y ago
You know what’s dangerous for cyclists? Other drivers.
com2kid 7y ago
Depends on the speed limit. Around here, on larger streets the speed limit is 35 mph. Riding a bike is considered a rather dangerous activity. Drop the speed limit to 20 mph and maybe sharing the road becomes possible. Seeing how other countries do it though, true separated bike lanes are the best. I agree that studies show painted bike lanes are actually more dangerous, but a physical barrier between cars and bikes is going to be the safest solution.
- NewsAware 7y ago
  The dangerous place is not the straight road, but crossings where cars turn right and hit cyclists going straight. So the way these spots are handled is way more important than painted line vs fence.
  - com2kid 7y ago
    This is true, but putting the stopping line for cars back a few feet largely fixes this. (Source: HN post a few months ago ;)
6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
>Separated bike lanes can be equally dangerous and more inconvenient for cyclists. I'm no expert, but I googled "protected bike lane safety statistics" and every result is touting the safety benefits. The results with reliable looking numbers are reporting injury reductions of 30-90%.

alberth 7y ago

Many massively large companies today, simply saw traction for a particular product/service in one country (market) and then adapted it to their own country (market). What might be a new "innovation" in our country could be old hat in another. Nothing wrong with that at all.

WillPostForFood 7y ago

the large majority of small vehicles on the road there are now electric. Maybe in some parts of China like Shenzhen that are mandating it, but gas powered cars are still outselling electric cars 25 to 1 in China, so it will be a long time before electric cars make up a majority.

CarVac 7y ago
>small vehicles There are far more electric scooters on the road than there are cars.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Citation? It is basically impossible to be true, as cars still and scooters sold about the same number in China last year, but you also have the last two decade of cars sold on the road.
  - CarVac 7y ago
    You might be right about there being more cars in the rural areas. In cities, it's no contest, there are hordes of scooters and only some cars. And 99% of the scooters were electric, in my experience.