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It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily

It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily way of life isn’t so compatible with western values, especially with respect to religion in government (or freedom of, rather) and general human rights and women’s rights. Israel appears to be democratic but discriminates heavily and are also driven to a great extent by extremist hardliners and outright corruption (ie Netanyahu's numbers are down, so he wants to annex more of the West Bank). Also, you’re not supposed to criticize anything they do out of fear of being labeled an anti Semite.

docdeek 7y ago
Accepting your premise, is there a non-corrupt alternative in the region?
- refurb 7y ago
  This is key. If your filter is to never partner with countries who have done unethical things, you're never going to partner with anyone.
- domnomnom 7y ago
  Iran of course.
kstenerud 7y ago
This is nothing new; The game of geopolitics is a dirty one, and you need sharp elbows to get your way. America's obsession with the Middle East was originally to counter the USSR, then later a quest to control oil prices so that their own producers wouldn't suffer. It's always played like a zero-sum game, which means that those in power will deal with unsavory characters if it means getting ahead. The "anti semite" fears are an American thing; outside of America, nobody cares. And that's to be expected... Israel gets no help from anyone else, so why should she care what they think? America, however, is a mind to be guarded, to ensure that her protection remains in the future. And this is a perfectly reasonable tactical stance to take for someone in Israel's precarious position. Obviously it's not so simple as this in reality. You have idealists and zealots and hardliners all jockeying for control within any given government. But the primary driving force is that of state security.
flyinglizard 7y ago
Before you accuse Israel of discrimination, you should consider that 20% of Israelis are Arabs (compare that to 12% of Americans being black) and that Arabs had legal equality in Israel decades before blacks did in America. The relationship between Israel and its Arab minority is much more nuanced than you think. I’d call it passive aggressive, going both ways.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  > Before you accuse Israel of discrimination, you should consider that 20% of Israelis are Arabs (compare that to 12% of Americans being black) and that Arabs had legal equality in Israel decades before blacks did on America. Why should that be considered?
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
    Because it’s perceived as an ethno-state while it’s more diverse than most if not Alon oECD countries. Because it’s been historically progressive in its relationship towards minorities. Because it’s not like it’s persecuting a tiny group of the population for sport, it’s that there’s a lot of tugging between a minority and majority which are much further apart in culture, religion and traditions than the whites and blacks in America. Because it’s reasonable to expect that issues appearing in the American societal fabric such as discrimination would show just as much in Israel with its huge proportional minority share. It’s not that Israel is racist as much as it is that there are discrimination issues in societies everywhere and this is just another instance.
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  > 20% of Israelis are Arabs Does that include the Palestinians, do the Israeli government counts them as people?
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
    They are not Israeli citizens, and therefore not counted under the Israeli populace. The 20% I referred to are Israeli-Arabs.

docdeek 7y ago

Accepting your premise, is there a non-corrupt alternative in the region?

refurb 7y ago
This is key. If your filter is to never partner with countries who have done unethical things, you're never going to partner with anyone.
domnomnom 7y ago
Iran of course.

kstenerud 7y ago

This is nothing new; The game of geopolitics is a dirty one, and you need sharp elbows to get your way. America's obsession with the Middle East was originally to counter the USSR, then later a quest to control oil prices so that their own producers wouldn't suffer. It's always played like a zero-sum game, which means that those in power will deal with unsavory characters if it means getting ahead. The "anti semite" fears are an American thing; outside of America, nobody cares. And that's to be expected... Israel gets no help from anyone else, so why should she care what they think? America, however, is a mind to be guarded, to ensure that her protection remains in the future. And this is a perfectly reasonable tactical stance to take for someone in Israel's precarious position. Obviously it's not so simple as this in reality. You have idealists and zealots and hardliners all jockeying for control within any given government. But the primary driving force is that of state security.

flyinglizard 7y ago

Before you accuse Israel of discrimination, you should consider that 20% of Israelis are Arabs (compare that to 12% of Americans being black) and that Arabs had legal equality in Israel decades before blacks did in America. The relationship between Israel and its Arab minority is much more nuanced than you think. I’d call it passive aggressive, going both ways.

lostlogin 7y ago
> Before you accuse Israel of discrimination, you should consider that 20% of Israelis are Arabs (compare that to 12% of Americans being black) and that Arabs had legal equality in Israel decades before blacks did on America. Why should that be considered?
- flyinglizard 7y ago
  Because it’s perceived as an ethno-state while it’s more diverse than most if not Alon oECD countries. Because it’s been historically progressive in its relationship towards minorities. Because it’s not like it’s persecuting a tiny group of the population for sport, it’s that there’s a lot of tugging between a minority and majority which are much further apart in culture, religion and traditions than the whites and blacks in America. Because it’s reasonable to expect that issues appearing in the American societal fabric such as discrimination would show just as much in Israel with its huge proportional minority share. It’s not that Israel is racist as much as it is that there are discrimination issues in societies everywhere and this is just another instance.
JetSpiegel 7y ago
> 20% of Israelis are Arabs Does that include the Palestinians, do the Israeli government counts them as people?
- flyinglizard 7y ago
  They are not Israeli citizens, and therefore not counted under the Israeli populace. The 20% I referred to are Israeli-Arabs.