4 ms·

> There are a lot of implied or assumed promises in corporate full-time jobs There is a lack of unions and labor laws. bye karma.

by gcb 16y ago

davidw 16y ago
I'm not one of the libertarian crowd, so what I say below is not just a knee-jerk response, and in any case I don't really wish to pursue these sorts of discussions (politics) here, because they end badly. Suffice it to say though, that you can't summarize the problem and solution in "lack of unions and labor laws". Italy, where I reside, has both, especially the latter, and they are quite detrimental in many ways. It's a complex issue with many factors, and likely has both regulatory, cultural and economic causes and solutions, some of which are easy to change and some that aren't.
- va_coder 16y ago
  There needs to be balance. God knows we don't have that in the U.S.A these days. But maybe we only have ourselves to blame. My grandfather, with no education, came from Italy had 3 kids a stay at home wife and a home. I on the hand am very educated and skilled and can barely afford a two bedroom apartment. Somethings changed.
forensic 16y ago
The lack of unions is due to culture rather than labour laws. I've spent a lot of time trying to convince IT people to start a voluntary union for their own benefit. In a word, they are too competitive and naieve to make it happen. IT employees in general could double their average salaries without resorting to labour laws just by starting voluntary unions and doing a modicum of collective bargaining. Instead they allow themselves to be divided and conquered and they even hide their salaries from co-workers which benefits no one aside from management. Ideologically, I am against government-enforced unions. However I am very much in favour of voluntary unions and there is lots of evidence that they can work especially when they behave in reasonable ways that don't threaten the existence of companies. Some corporations will prefer to hire from unions for a variety of reasons including less variability in work quality and higher morale. Anyway collective bargaining does not have to be enforced in law to be effective. The real issue is that the most talented and resourceful people in society tend to be the ones who become owners, and they use their talent and influence to convince IT employees that unions are bad. The average programmer is stubbornly anti-union for no logical reason - the reason is that he's brainwashed by the strong opinions of industry leaders who don't want to pay him what he's worth.
- jasonkester 16y ago
  I'm stubbornly anti-union for this reason: https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96IzwzwYHG8rRP95fT_2fNNAWjvnLWTzw_3d https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96Izwz... Chart 16 is a breakdown of salaries for StackOverflow users, nearly all of which are so low that a good developer should be insulted to be offered it. Where, on that chart, do you suppose the Union would decide to set my fair salary based on my experience in the trade? 60k? 80k? 100k? No thanks. I'll stick to the free market.
  - forensic 16y ago
    1. A rising tide floats all boats. 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. They can still allow for inequality of pay negotiated on an individual level, but after an initial negotiation on a collective level. Basically you can design the union to still pay higher performers what they are worth and pay low performers a lot less - but with everyone's salaries being increased relative to management.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. Maybe not, but let's see some examples that have been significantly better for over 10 years. (And no, teachers unions aren't better.) I agree that it isn't obvious that unions must necessarily be a disaster in the US, but that's a theory argument and you know what they say about theory and practice....
      - forensic 16y ago
        IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. In other countries there are successful unions in industries and contexts where the government plays little role.
        anamax 16y ago
        > IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. Given that, would you recommend that programmers join unions in the US? If so, why?

> There are a lot of implied or assumed promises in corporate full-time jobs There is a lack of unions and labor laws. bye karma.

by gcb 16y ago

> There are a lot of implied or assumed promises in corporate full-time jobs There is a lack of unions and labor laws. bye karma.

davidw 16y ago

I'm not one of the libertarian crowd, so what I say below is not just a knee-jerk response, and in any case I don't really wish to pursue these sorts of discussions (politics) here, because they end badly. Suffice it to say though, that you can't summarize the problem and solution in "lack of unions and labor laws". Italy, where I reside, has both, especially the latter, and they are quite detrimental in many ways. It's a complex issue with many factors, and likely has both regulatory, cultural and economic causes and solutions, some of which are easy to change and some that aren't.

va_coder 16y ago
There needs to be balance. God knows we don't have that in the U.S.A these days. But maybe we only have ourselves to blame. My grandfather, with no education, came from Italy had 3 kids a stay at home wife and a home. I on the hand am very educated and skilled and can barely afford a two bedroom apartment. Somethings changed.

forensic 16y ago

The lack of unions is due to culture rather than labour laws. I've spent a lot of time trying to convince IT people to start a voluntary union for their own benefit. In a word, they are too competitive and naieve to make it happen. IT employees in general could double their average salaries without resorting to labour laws just by starting voluntary unions and doing a modicum of collective bargaining. Instead they allow themselves to be divided and conquered and they even hide their salaries from co-workers which benefits no one aside from management. Ideologically, I am against government-enforced unions. However I am very much in favour of voluntary unions and there is lots of evidence that they can work especially when they behave in reasonable ways that don't threaten the existence of companies. Some corporations will prefer to hire from unions for a variety of reasons including less variability in work quality and higher morale. Anyway collective bargaining does not have to be enforced in law to be effective. The real issue is that the most talented and resourceful people in society tend to be the ones who become owners, and they use their talent and influence to convince IT employees that unions are bad. The average programmer is stubbornly anti-union for no logical reason - the reason is that he's brainwashed by the strong opinions of industry leaders who don't want to pay him what he's worth.

jasonkester 16y ago
I'm stubbornly anti-union for this reason: https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96IzwzwYHG8rRP95fT_2fNNAWjvnLWTzw_3d https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=QpfonhAfJ6Q_2b96Izwz... Chart 16 is a breakdown of salaries for StackOverflow users, nearly all of which are so low that a good developer should be insulted to be offered it. Where, on that chart, do you suppose the Union would decide to set my fair salary based on my experience in the trade? 60k? 80k? 100k? No thanks. I'll stick to the free market.
- forensic 16y ago
  1. A rising tide floats all boats. 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. They can still allow for inequality of pay negotiated on an individual level, but after an initial negotiation on a collective level. Basically you can design the union to still pay higher performers what they are worth and pay low performers a lot less - but with everyone's salaries being increased relative to management.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > 2. Unions don't have to fit the rigid model you have in your head of the UAW. Maybe not, but let's see some examples that have been significantly better for over 10 years. (And no, teachers unions aren't better.) I agree that it isn't obvious that unions must necessarily be a disaster in the US, but that's a theory argument and you know what they say about theory and practice....
    - forensic 16y ago
      IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. In other countries there are successful unions in industries and contexts where the government plays little role.
      - anamax 16y ago
        > IMO american unions are a disaster because of government intervention. Given that, would you recommend that programmers join unions in the US? If so, why?