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I like Python because of zen of python [1]. This fits my brain and had been very helpful. Indeed in 2004 I chose Django instead of Ruby On Rails just because ex

I like Python because of zen of python [1]. This fits my brain and had been very helpful. Indeed in 2004 I chose Django instead of Ruby On Rails just because explicit is better than implicit. Overall Python is productive and good. Yes it has some warts and corner case, but than its evident. Among programming language python has a humble community and very approachable. Also most programmer in Python will not hesitate to use low level language and interface with Python when necessary. It's not considered bad. >>>import this "Beautiful is better than ugly. Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. Complex is better than complicated. Flat is better than nested. Sparse is better than dense. Readability counts. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. Although practicality beats purity. Errors should never pass silently. Unless explicitly silenced. In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. Now is better than never. Although never is often better than right now. If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea. Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!" [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/

smt88 7y ago
I agree with a lot of these things, but actually disagree that Python is good at exemplifying some of them. For example, semantic whitespace is arguably implicit, hard to read, invites density (compared to an extra line for braces), and (again arguably) is ugly. Yes, some of these things are subjective, but it's hard for me to confidently recommend Python to someone with these values.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  May be different people have different experience with Python. After c and Perl had been using it for over 15 years and among the languages I have seen Python code is one of the most readable one so far, again subjective as I like sparse and empty spaces in architecture with minimalist design. For me whitespace is same in Python code. Whitespaces forces programmer to make code readable. Obviously today with tools like gofmt, rustfmt it seems easy and those are inspired by Python. Python PEP process has been adopted by many programming language. Try JCP process and see what I am talking about.
  - thayne 7y ago
    I'd be fine with python requiring indentation, what bugs me is the lack of an end delimiter. IMO it makes things like aut-indentation, auto-formatting, copy-pasting chunks of python code etc. a worse experience.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    If C and Perl are your comparison points, obviously python will seem better...
    - dragonsh 7y ago
      I have tried golang, Java, C++, js and recently rust. I can still confidently say python code is the most readable of them all. Indeed so much so that python style is adopted by swift language and it does look cleaner than others. Obviously I like concise perl, Haskell code too they have a beauty of their own, but that does not make python whitespace is bad. It's just people who feel it's a burden to explicitly follow whitespace hate python indentation based on my observations. Since suddenly instead of braces or statement end one need to use a visual sense of beauty along with logic.
      - ummonk 7y ago
        In what way has Swift adopted Python style?
- t0mbstone 7y ago
  I can't even tell you how many hours I've lost due to someone committing an incorrectly indented line in python. This often happens during merge conflicts, for example. Because logic in python is interpreted via indentation, it's very difficult for python to realize when a line is indented incorrectly. It just assumes that if a line is indented a certain way, it was intentional. In programming languages like Ruby or Javascript, indentation is stylistic and has no effect on the logic. You can actually use the "auto-indent" feature of many editors, and you can use linting tools to ensure formatting. If you have an extra "end" or an extra ending bracket, your IDE can immediately warn you. Not so with python!
  - psv1 7y ago
    > very difficult for python to realize when a line is indented incorrectly. It just assumes that if a line is indented a certain way, it was intentional. How is this different from some language not realising that a statement should be inside of the curly brackets instead of outside?
    - dreamcompiler 7y ago
      No compiler can read your mind. But in a language with brackets, the compiler can at least determine scope even when things are poorly-indented. In Python it can't in a lot of cases. It's like static type checking: The class of errors the compiler can catch is larger when it's present. Likewise, with visible scoping characters, the class of errors the compiler can catch is larger than when they are invisible.
      - psv1 7y ago
        > But in a language with brackets, the compiler can at least determine scope even when things are poorly-indented. Yes, but can it determine scope if things are poorly-bracketed? Because that's the fair comparison.
        smt88 7y ago
        Poor bracketing almost always causes syntax or compiler errors. As long as you have a language that's block-scoped (which is true of modern JavaScript and most other popular languages), you'll get an error if you make a bracketing mistake. That's not true of indent mistakes. Semantic whitespace is lossy -- there's data contained in those brackets that some people think is low-value that it's expendable for the sake of saving keystrokes, but it does have value in practice.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >For example, semantic whitespace is arguably implicit, hard to read How is it implicit and hard to read? If anything it's very explicit, instead of just a single { and } to denote "the next part is the body", it explicitly requires visibly indenting the body. That's easier to read, and is the expected "good practice" in C and similar "brace" languages anyway (you're not supposed to use { and } without also indenting your code there either). Python's semantic whitespace is more visible than having a { and } in C e.g. and not indenting, or having a for/if/etc without braces with a single statement attached and not indenting. Not sure what's ugly about: def double(n): return n*2 compared to: function double(int n) { return n*2; } or worse: function double(int n) {return n*2;} (especially with larger bodies -- in fact this non-required whitespace property is where 90% of the "obfuscated-C" ability is based on)
saagarjha 7y ago
Having a bit of experience with Python, I’d say it doesn’t exemplify > Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. > There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Python is complicated enough that the language and standard library often have multiple ways of doing the same thing. And there are still a number of “special cases” in the language, or at least non-intuitive results. Certain things are mutable (probably for performance?) when they shouldn’t be, some things behave in odd ways, and certain distinctions are made blurry but then it comes back to bite you when you do something non-trivial and the differences become apparent.
- _never_k 7y ago
  This is the way I feel too. Python is both redundant and inconsistent at a basic level. The APIs for `map`, `filter` and `reduce`, the inversion between `split` and `join`, `sort` vs `sorted` -- it's all very weird. And these aren't advanced features. When I hear people describe Python as simple and elegant, it feels like they're using a different language than the one I know.
  - kstrauser 7y ago
    Note: in practice, almost no one uses map, filter, and reduce. Those are almost 100% replaced by list and generator comprehensions in code written in the last decade or so. The difference between split and join is kind of weird, I'll grant. I'm not sure why it was done that way. `sort` is in place. You're telling an object to order itself: "hey you! Sort yourself!" `sorted` returns a copy of an object, but... sorted. You're asking for the sorted version of that thing.

smt88 7y ago

I agree with a lot of these things, but actually disagree that Python is good at exemplifying some of them. For example, semantic whitespace is arguably implicit, hard to read, invites density (compared to an extra line for braces), and (again arguably) is ugly. Yes, some of these things are subjective, but it's hard for me to confidently recommend Python to someone with these values.

dragonsh 7y ago
May be different people have different experience with Python. After c and Perl had been using it for over 15 years and among the languages I have seen Python code is one of the most readable one so far, again subjective as I like sparse and empty spaces in architecture with minimalist design. For me whitespace is same in Python code. Whitespaces forces programmer to make code readable. Obviously today with tools like gofmt, rustfmt it seems easy and those are inspired by Python. Python PEP process has been adopted by many programming language. Try JCP process and see what I am talking about.
- thayne 7y ago
  I'd be fine with python requiring indentation, what bugs me is the lack of an end delimiter. IMO it makes things like aut-indentation, auto-formatting, copy-pasting chunks of python code etc. a worse experience.
- ummonk 7y ago
  If C and Perl are your comparison points, obviously python will seem better...
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    I have tried golang, Java, C++, js and recently rust. I can still confidently say python code is the most readable of them all. Indeed so much so that python style is adopted by swift language and it does look cleaner than others. Obviously I like concise perl, Haskell code too they have a beauty of their own, but that does not make python whitespace is bad. It's just people who feel it's a burden to explicitly follow whitespace hate python indentation based on my observations. Since suddenly instead of braces or statement end one need to use a visual sense of beauty along with logic.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      In what way has Swift adopted Python style?
t0mbstone 7y ago
I can't even tell you how many hours I've lost due to someone committing an incorrectly indented line in python. This often happens during merge conflicts, for example. Because logic in python is interpreted via indentation, it's very difficult for python to realize when a line is indented incorrectly. It just assumes that if a line is indented a certain way, it was intentional. In programming languages like Ruby or Javascript, indentation is stylistic and has no effect on the logic. You can actually use the "auto-indent" feature of many editors, and you can use linting tools to ensure formatting. If you have an extra "end" or an extra ending bracket, your IDE can immediately warn you. Not so with python!
- psv1 7y ago
  > very difficult for python to realize when a line is indented incorrectly. It just assumes that if a line is indented a certain way, it was intentional. How is this different from some language not realising that a statement should be inside of the curly brackets instead of outside?
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    No compiler can read your mind. But in a language with brackets, the compiler can at least determine scope even when things are poorly-indented. In Python it can't in a lot of cases. It's like static type checking: The class of errors the compiler can catch is larger when it's present. Likewise, with visible scoping characters, the class of errors the compiler can catch is larger than when they are invisible.
    - psv1 7y ago
      > But in a language with brackets, the compiler can at least determine scope even when things are poorly-indented. Yes, but can it determine scope if things are poorly-bracketed? Because that's the fair comparison.
      - smt88 7y ago
        Poor bracketing almost always causes syntax or compiler errors. As long as you have a language that's block-scoped (which is true of modern JavaScript and most other popular languages), you'll get an error if you make a bracketing mistake. That's not true of indent mistakes. Semantic whitespace is lossy -- there's data contained in those brackets that some people think is low-value that it's expendable for the sake of saving keystrokes, but it does have value in practice.
coldtea 7y ago
>For example, semantic whitespace is arguably implicit, hard to read How is it implicit and hard to read? If anything it's very explicit, instead of just a single { and } to denote "the next part is the body", it explicitly requires visibly indenting the body. That's easier to read, and is the expected "good practice" in C and similar "brace" languages anyway (you're not supposed to use { and } without also indenting your code there either). Python's semantic whitespace is more visible than having a { and } in C e.g. and not indenting, or having a for/if/etc without braces with a single statement attached and not indenting. Not sure what's ugly about: def double(n): return n*2 compared to: function double(int n) { return n*2; } or worse: function double(int n) {return n*2;} (especially with larger bodies -- in fact this non-required whitespace property is where 90% of the "obfuscated-C" ability is based on)

saagarjha 7y ago

Having a bit of experience with Python, I’d say it doesn’t exemplify > Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. > There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Python is complicated enough that the language and standard library often have multiple ways of doing the same thing. And there are still a number of “special cases” in the language, or at least non-intuitive results. Certain things are mutable (probably for performance?) when they shouldn’t be, some things behave in odd ways, and certain distinctions are made blurry but then it comes back to bite you when you do something non-trivial and the differences become apparent.

_never_k 7y ago
This is the way I feel too. Python is both redundant and inconsistent at a basic level. The APIs for `map`, `filter` and `reduce`, the inversion between `split` and `join`, `sort` vs `sorted` -- it's all very weird. And these aren't advanced features. When I hear people describe Python as simple and elegant, it feels like they're using a different language than the one I know.
- kstrauser 7y ago
  Note: in practice, almost no one uses map, filter, and reduce. Those are almost 100% replaced by list and generator comprehensions in code written in the last decade or so. The difference between split and join is kind of weird, I'll grant. I'm not sure why it was done that way. `sort` is in place. You're telling an object to order itself: "hey you! Sort yourself!" `sorted` returns a copy of an object, but... sorted. You're asking for the sorted version of that thing.