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What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources most

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

mamon 7y ago
You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  > If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers You're downvoted, but this has absolutely been my observation as well
  - BlackRing 7y ago
    He's not wrong. They don't provide anything we couldn't get elsewhere.
  - alfromspace 7y ago
    I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. AIPAC alone spends almost $70 million per year, and we're supposed to pretend lobbying has nothing to do with our seemingly unconditional support for Israel?
    - partialrecall 7y ago
      > I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. Yes, that situation seems comparable to the smears of antisemitism thrown against Jeremy Corbyn too.
  - amitport 7y ago
    >Israel is the boss, US is the muscle >If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit. >> this has absolutely been my observation as well Have you considered that you've been called antisemites because you are. Not because you have experience with "try[ing] to end it" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Political_antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Political_antisem... US is not controlled by Israel and you're idiots for thinking that. There many logical ways to reach this conclusion, but just for fun here's a question: If it's so easy to control ~350m people of the US wouldn't the controllers be China or Russia? or wouldn't some rich cocaine manufacturer lobby its way to the congress and have that sold in supermarkets? (I do realize that using the term "idiots" means I'll get downvotes, but isn't there an exception considering that they really are idiots (and antisemites))
    - tracer4201 7y ago
      Israel has unreasonable influence in the US. Speaking against them in any way can be career suicide for American politicians. Dismissing criticism of Israel and the Israeli lobby as anti Semitic is just an attempt to control the conversation, nothing more.
      - flyinglizard 7y ago
        Many Americans care deeply about Israel. What’s wrong with that?
        tracer4201 7y ago
        I am not sure how true that is more recently, at least in more liberal circles, although that is really besides the point. I can criticize the American government and insult my president, and that’s generally more tolerable (although people may disagree) than criticizing the government of Israel. You won’t be jailed but your reputation will be tarnished because the narrative has been that not supporting Israel 100% unconditionally is equivalent to being anti Semitic. It’s just a move to shut down any discussion. We can debate gun reform, healthcare, climate bills, etc. we can criticize allies all over the world, but Israel should not be questioned. If you don’t see the problem with that, you’re probably part of the problem.
- eee_honda 7y ago
  Israel is absolutely not the boss. The US only started caring about Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, when they clearly demonstrated they could effectively suppress their Arab neighbours with military might. It is the same as supporting the most powerful warlord in any other state (Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, the Shah of Iran, countless others), but projected over an entire region that also happens to contain Saudi Arabia. This is also why the US has been funneling israel billions of dollars in aid to develop its military industry over the past few decades. US has gained plenty from this alliance, it has projected power in the Middle East through an ally that is terrifyingly overprepared for war, allowing it to maintain the artificial order in the Middle East and petrodollar dominance.
  - sequoia 7y ago
    > terrifyingly overprepared for war Given the number of times multiple of its neighbors have attempted to invade and destroy the country and the fact that many of the neighbors _still_ don't recognize Israel's legitimacy, I'm interested in how you figure Israel is "overprepared" for war. They seem just the right amount prepared, i.e. ready to fight a battle for their existence against multiple large enemies at the drop of a hat. Given history and given the stakes (lost war could mean another genocide), why should Israel not be prepared at this level?
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. The US (and the rest of the Western economies) gains two very important things: first of all, an allied democracy with real military power that is sitting right next to Arabic dictatorship states where the US are, at best, viewed as the ultimate Satan - thus ensuring the US gets and keeps (!) access to cheap oil. The second thing is that all the military hardware Israel buys or gets "donated" as military aid by the US secures American, French and German jobs in the defense industry. > If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit. If you're really claiming Israel is the boss / "secret ruler", you don't need to complain about being called an antisemite. The trope of Israel / "shadow Jews" ruling the world is one of the oldest antisemitic conspiracy theories in history.
  - TKWasRight 7y ago
    Aren't we only viewed as Satan because of our support for Israel? If we stopped our support for Israel, then OUR interests would be elevated over Israel's, which would be good for us but bad for Israel. They really don't serve us that well for be our so-called "Greatest Ally." You can't just hide behind "that's antisemitism" in all cases of analysis of Israel's influence in geopolitics and specifically in U.S politics ..it's not being intellectually honest
    - devmunchies 7y ago
      Thats a good point. If we weren't allied with Israel and didn't pick sides in the middle east, would we even need allies over there?
      - flyinglizard 7y ago
        Just extend this logic to the Cold War and WWII. Why would America ever choose sides, right? Just let the Nazis take over Europe and USSR take over the rest. No enemies to worry about!
        7y ago
sundbry 7y ago
https://www.israellobby.org/azcdoj/ https://www.israellobby.org/azcdoj/
ceejayoz 7y ago
The US gains access to effective intelligence networks in the Arab world and Iran, a useful testbed for anti-rocket and anti-mortar technology, forward military basing, and a variety of other benefits.
_iyig 7y ago
I highly recommend “The Israel Lobby” by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZQIF6/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZQIF6/ “They describe the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel and argues that this support cannot be fully explained on either strategic or moral grounds. This exceptional relationship is due largely to the political influence of a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. Mearsheimer and Walt provocatively contend that the lobby has a far-reaching impact on America's posture throughout the Middle East—in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—and the policies it has encouraged are in neither America's national interest nor Israel's long-term interest. The lobby's influence also affects America's relationship with important allies and increases dangers that all states face from global jihadist terror.”
endtime 7y ago
* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lot of American tech companies have offices in Israel, which means we have an interest in its stability and prosperity
- sa-mao 7y ago
  The Liberal democracy value is highly debatable as shown by the treatment of the Arab spring as well as the strategic alliance with K.S.A.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  In terms of R&D - Israel develops military research far cheaper than the US military industrial complex charges, and the results are shared back with the US. Some examples are the Iron Dome missile defense system, Predator Drones, Stuxnet, and early cell phone technology.
  - amitport 7y ago
    Stuxnet? Any references?
    - drak0n1c 7y ago
      Here is an overview. There are many news articles and even documentaries on its origins. https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-who-created-it-and-how-does-it-work.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-wh...
- nickik 7y ago
  Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.
pessimizer 7y ago
It's important to remember that "foreign aid" is actually domestic aid, i.e. is not money given from one country to another to purchase things, but things from particular vendors in a particular country given to another country, paid for by tax dollars. That massive aid to Israel (and Egypt, and wherever else) creates a block of insider companies in the US that need to lobby for Israeli belligerence (and promote the idea of constant existential threats to Israel) to protect a significant portion of their business. This would happen whether or not these companies had any personal or ideological connection to Israel, but these relationships would tend to grow over time (between contractors and the Israeli government.) edit: The US as a whole gets nothing but hassle and cognitive dissonance out of the relationship, but just like any war racket, people producing the material for that war get wealthy enough to get their politicians elected and perpetuate the process.
- wallace_f 7y ago
  This is an interesting framework and it seems apparent to sadly hold truth. The other framework is that it is nothing more than simply of course as anyone can easily see Jewish and pro-Israeli politicians, technocrats, billionaires, industry-leaders and lobbying groups frankly exist in such extreme disproportion to any other ethnic group in elite America that it would be surprising if they didn't have a special, privileged relationship. It is so easy to become a pariah just for simply stating this blatantly obvious state of affairs, or worse instantaneously lose your career for saying something like get out of Palestine such as how Helen Thomas did. One of my parents is Jewish, but I frankly despise racism, nepotism and nationalism and do care about living in a free and honest society and this topic clearly is one example where extreme cognitive dissonance, political correctness have made it into frankly Wrongthink. AFAIK there are only two countries to have openly attacked the US Navy and both received nuclear weapons though not delivered in the same way. AIPAC openly interferes with US elections. I'm not sure what good comes out of all of this, but if there is some I would like to at least know.
  - pessimizer 7y ago
    > frankly exist in such extreme disproportion to any other ethnic group in elite America I do not think that this is true at all. A lot of interests converge in the US relationship with the Israeli state, but Judaism as a religion isn't the dominant partner. The US is full of antisemites, and the refusal of the US to take in refugees as WWII was brewing contributed to the intensity of the Holocaust, and the increase in Jewish support for the Zionist project. You can easily become a pro-Israel politician if you are an antisemite who is taking money from a contractor (who is also antisemitic) who sells arms to Israel, and you're representing a state filled with evangelicals who believe that Israel will cause the second coming of Jesus Christ, who will either convert or condemn all of the Jews to eternal suffering. Israel doesn't control anything, and the US doesn't intrinsically care about Israel (which is why it's constantly insecure in the relationship.) Wealthy people in the US use Israel for their own purposes, and Israel (largely Likudnik Israel) spends lots of time and effort to remain valuable to those people. I think that a few old, terrible Jewish billionaires who think that their rabid support of Israel (through donating to US right-wingers) will get them into heaven despite their terrible personal and business ethics get an inordinate amount of attention, and end up characterizing all of Israeli lobbying for a lot of people.
kstenerud 7y ago
Israel and Saudi Arabia are America's eyes and ears into the Middle East. It could have been any nation (indeed, America tried to get Iran as well, but was... less than successful). These kinds of relationships require a fair bit of quid pro quo, and of course for a country like Israel whose very national security depends upon a cozy relationship with America, it's perfectly understandable that they'd be spying on American influencers wherever and whenever possible. In fact, it's unofficially tolerated in the intelligence service as a cost of doing business. Same goes for the foibles of the crown prince in Saudi Arabia (which have by now been conveniently forgotten by the press and everyone else). Once you've made friends who are useful to your grander plans, it's best to ignore the annoying things they do.
- tracer4201 7y ago
  It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily way of life isn’t so compatible with western values, especially with respect to religion in government (or freedom of, rather) and general human rights and women’s rights. Israel appears to be democratic but discriminates heavily and are also driven to a great extent by extremist hardliners and outright corruption (ie Netanyahu's numbers are down, so he wants to annex more of the West Bank). Also, you’re not supposed to criticize anything they do out of fear of being labeled an anti Semite.
  - docdeek 7y ago
    Accepting your premise, is there a non-corrupt alternative in the region?
    - refurb 7y ago
      This is key. If your filter is to never partner with countries who have done unethical things, you're never going to partner with anyone.
    - domnomnom 7y ago
      Iran of course.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
KoftaBob 7y ago
The (well-intentioned) mistake you're making is assuming US officials' top priority is the greater interests of America, rather than their own personal interests. You could just as easily ask what the US gets out of the special relationship with Saudi Arabia, a country ruled by murderous tyrants, and the country of origin of the majority of the 9/11 highjackers. In the cases of both Israeli lobby influence and Saudi royal's influence, the answer is money and power. Our members of congress are very easily influenced by "donations", and those two groups happen to be particularly wealthy. On the flip side, the Mossad and many other intelligence groups are particularly good at getting blackmail material on politicians. If you don't play ball and you get in their way, they have the ability to ruin your career as well. In my opinion, I would say the turning point where the US started to prioritize Israel as an ally was after the Suez Crisis. "In October 1965 Eisenhower told Jewish fundraiser and Republican party supporter Max M. Fisher that he greatly regretted forcing Israel to withdraw from the Sinai peninsula; Vice-President Nixon recalled that Eisenhower expressed the same view to him on several occasions." [Alteras, Isaac (1993). Eisenhower and Israel: U.S.-Israeli Relations, 1953-1960]. After Eisenhower's presidency, JFK further strengthened this alliance: "As president, Kennedy initiated the creation of security ties with Israel, and he is credited as the founder of the US-Israeli military alliance, which would be continued under subsequent presidents. Kennedy ended the arms embargo that the Eisenhower and Truman administrations had enforced on Israel. Describing the protection of Israel as a moral and national commitment, he was the first to introduce the concept of a "special relationship" (as he described it to Golda Meir) between the US and Israel.[207]" One exception was when JFK resisted Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons, which they felt was crucial in their survival as a country. "In a May 1963 letter to Ben-Gurion, Kennedy wrote that he was skeptical and stated that American support to Israel could be in jeopardy if reliable information on the Israeli nuclear program was not forthcoming, Ben-Gurion repeated previous reassurances that Dimona was being developed for peaceful purposes." You'll note that he was assassinated only months later. Not to get all conspiracy theory, but I've always felt the timing was a bit suspect. Long story short, the US as a nation may not get much benefit from the relationship, but the individual politicians do. Until we get rid of the concept of lobbies, PACs, and require all campaigns to be tax-funded, politicians will continue to serve the countries and groups that pay them, not the American populace.
- 7y ago
balls187 7y ago
> What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing? It's tolerated because US engages in similar behavior against it's allies. Officially the perpetrator denies allegations, and unofficially they pay some undisclosed penance. The only real thing of note was the lack of official rebuke from the Trump Administration.
aphextim 7y ago
No idea, but they tolerated Israel blowing up a US navy ship and killing sailors so I'm sure they'll give this one a pass too. >The attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate," the NSA's director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress. >"I don't think you'll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental," Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview. >"I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing," said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs. >"So for me, the question really is who issued the order to do that and why? That's the really interesting thing." >The answer, if there is one, will probably never be known. Gen. Moshe Dayan, then the country's minister of defense; Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister; and Golda Meir, his successor, are all dead. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.h...

mamon 7y ago

You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.

hanniabu 7y ago
> If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers You're downvoted, but this has absolutely been my observation as well
- BlackRing 7y ago
  He's not wrong. They don't provide anything we couldn't get elsewhere.
- alfromspace 7y ago
  I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. AIPAC alone spends almost $70 million per year, and we're supposed to pretend lobbying has nothing to do with our seemingly unconditional support for Israel?
  - partialrecall 7y ago
    > I'm no fan of Rep Ilhan Omar, but I find the antisemitism charges against her absurd. Yes, that situation seems comparable to the smears of antisemitism thrown against Jeremy Corbyn too.
- amitport 7y ago
  >Israel is the boss, US is the muscle >If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit. >> this has absolutely been my observation as well Have you considered that you've been called antisemites because you are. Not because you have experience with "try[ing] to end it" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Political_antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Political_antisem... US is not controlled by Israel and you're idiots for thinking that. There many logical ways to reach this conclusion, but just for fun here's a question: If it's so easy to control ~350m people of the US wouldn't the controllers be China or Russia? or wouldn't some rich cocaine manufacturer lobby its way to the congress and have that sold in supermarkets? (I do realize that using the term "idiots" means I'll get downvotes, but isn't there an exception considering that they really are idiots (and antisemites))
  - tracer4201 7y ago
    Israel has unreasonable influence in the US. Speaking against them in any way can be career suicide for American politicians. Dismissing criticism of Israel and the Israeli lobby as anti Semitic is just an attempt to control the conversation, nothing more.
    - flyinglizard 7y ago
      Many Americans care deeply about Israel. What’s wrong with that?
      - tracer4201 7y ago
        I am not sure how true that is more recently, at least in more liberal circles, although that is really besides the point. I can criticize the American government and insult my president, and that’s generally more tolerable (although people may disagree) than criticizing the government of Israel. You won’t be jailed but your reputation will be tarnished because the narrative has been that not supporting Israel 100% unconditionally is equivalent to being anti Semitic. It’s just a move to shut down any discussion. We can debate gun reform, healthcare, climate bills, etc. we can criticize allies all over the world, but Israel should not be questioned. If you don’t see the problem with that, you’re probably part of the problem.
eee_honda 7y ago
Israel is absolutely not the boss. The US only started caring about Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, when they clearly demonstrated they could effectively suppress their Arab neighbours with military might. It is the same as supporting the most powerful warlord in any other state (Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, the Shah of Iran, countless others), but projected over an entire region that also happens to contain Saudi Arabia. This is also why the US has been funneling israel billions of dollars in aid to develop its military industry over the past few decades. US has gained plenty from this alliance, it has projected power in the Middle East through an ally that is terrifyingly overprepared for war, allowing it to maintain the artificial order in the Middle East and petrodollar dominance.
- sequoia 7y ago
  > terrifyingly overprepared for war Given the number of times multiple of its neighbors have attempted to invade and destroy the country and the fact that many of the neighbors _still_ don't recognize Israel's legitimacy, I'm interested in how you figure Israel is "overprepared" for war. They seem just the right amount prepared, i.e. ready to fight a battle for their existence against multiple large enemies at the drop of a hat. Given history and given the stakes (lost war could mean another genocide), why should Israel not be prepared at this level?
mschuster91 7y ago
> So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. The US (and the rest of the Western economies) gains two very important things: first of all, an allied democracy with real military power that is sitting right next to Arabic dictatorship states where the US are, at best, viewed as the ultimate Satan - thus ensuring the US gets and keeps (!) access to cheap oil. The second thing is that all the military hardware Israel buys or gets "donated" as military aid by the US secures American, French and German jobs in the defense industry. > If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit. If you're really claiming Israel is the boss / "secret ruler", you don't need to complain about being called an antisemite. The trope of Israel / "shadow Jews" ruling the world is one of the oldest antisemitic conspiracy theories in history.
- TKWasRight 7y ago
  Aren't we only viewed as Satan because of our support for Israel? If we stopped our support for Israel, then OUR interests would be elevated over Israel's, which would be good for us but bad for Israel. They really don't serve us that well for be our so-called "Greatest Ally." You can't just hide behind "that's antisemitism" in all cases of analysis of Israel's influence in geopolitics and specifically in U.S politics ..it's not being intellectually honest
  - devmunchies 7y ago
    Thats a good point. If we weren't allied with Israel and didn't pick sides in the middle east, would we even need allies over there?
    - flyinglizard 7y ago
      Just extend this logic to the Cold War and WWII. Why would America ever choose sides, right? Just let the Nazis take over Europe and USSR take over the rest. No enemies to worry about!
      - 7y ago

sundbry 7y ago

https://www.israellobby.org/azcdoj/ https://www.israellobby.org/azcdoj/

ceejayoz 7y ago

The US gains access to effective intelligence networks in the Arab world and Iran, a useful testbed for anti-rocket and anti-mortar technology, forward military basing, and a variety of other benefits.

_iyig 7y ago

I highly recommend “The Israel Lobby” by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZQIF6/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZQIF6/ “They describe the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel and argues that this support cannot be fully explained on either strategic or moral grounds. This exceptional relationship is due largely to the political influence of a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. Mearsheimer and Walt provocatively contend that the lobby has a far-reaching impact on America's posture throughout the Middle East—in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—and the policies it has encouraged are in neither America's national interest nor Israel's long-term interest. The lobby's influence also affects America's relationship with important allies and increases dangers that all states face from global jihadist terror.”

endtime 7y ago

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lot of American tech companies have offices in Israel, which means we have an interest in its stability and prosperity

sa-mao 7y ago
The Liberal democracy value is highly debatable as shown by the treatment of the Arab spring as well as the strategic alliance with K.S.A.
drak0n1c 7y ago
In terms of R&D - Israel develops military research far cheaper than the US military industrial complex charges, and the results are shared back with the US. Some examples are the Iron Dome missile defense system, Predator Drones, Stuxnet, and early cell phone technology.
- amitport 7y ago
  Stuxnet? Any references?
  - drak0n1c 7y ago
    Here is an overview. There are many news articles and even documentaries on its origins. https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-who-created-it-and-how-does-it-work.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-wh...
nickik 7y ago
Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

pessimizer 7y ago

It's important to remember that "foreign aid" is actually domestic aid, i.e. is not money given from one country to another to purchase things, but things from particular vendors in a particular country given to another country, paid for by tax dollars. That massive aid to Israel (and Egypt, and wherever else) creates a block of insider companies in the US that need to lobby for Israeli belligerence (and promote the idea of constant existential threats to Israel) to protect a significant portion of their business. This would happen whether or not these companies had any personal or ideological connection to Israel, but these relationships would tend to grow over time (between contractors and the Israeli government.) edit: The US as a whole gets nothing but hassle and cognitive dissonance out of the relationship, but just like any war racket, people producing the material for that war get wealthy enough to get their politicians elected and perpetuate the process.

wallace_f 7y ago
This is an interesting framework and it seems apparent to sadly hold truth. The other framework is that it is nothing more than simply of course as anyone can easily see Jewish and pro-Israeli politicians, technocrats, billionaires, industry-leaders and lobbying groups frankly exist in such extreme disproportion to any other ethnic group in elite America that it would be surprising if they didn't have a special, privileged relationship. It is so easy to become a pariah just for simply stating this blatantly obvious state of affairs, or worse instantaneously lose your career for saying something like get out of Palestine such as how Helen Thomas did. One of my parents is Jewish, but I frankly despise racism, nepotism and nationalism and do care about living in a free and honest society and this topic clearly is one example where extreme cognitive dissonance, political correctness have made it into frankly Wrongthink. AFAIK there are only two countries to have openly attacked the US Navy and both received nuclear weapons though not delivered in the same way. AIPAC openly interferes with US elections. I'm not sure what good comes out of all of this, but if there is some I would like to at least know.
- pessimizer 7y ago
  > frankly exist in such extreme disproportion to any other ethnic group in elite America I do not think that this is true at all. A lot of interests converge in the US relationship with the Israeli state, but Judaism as a religion isn't the dominant partner. The US is full of antisemites, and the refusal of the US to take in refugees as WWII was brewing contributed to the intensity of the Holocaust, and the increase in Jewish support for the Zionist project. You can easily become a pro-Israel politician if you are an antisemite who is taking money from a contractor (who is also antisemitic) who sells arms to Israel, and you're representing a state filled with evangelicals who believe that Israel will cause the second coming of Jesus Christ, who will either convert or condemn all of the Jews to eternal suffering. Israel doesn't control anything, and the US doesn't intrinsically care about Israel (which is why it's constantly insecure in the relationship.) Wealthy people in the US use Israel for their own purposes, and Israel (largely Likudnik Israel) spends lots of time and effort to remain valuable to those people. I think that a few old, terrible Jewish billionaires who think that their rabid support of Israel (through donating to US right-wingers) will get them into heaven despite their terrible personal and business ethics get an inordinate amount of attention, and end up characterizing all of Israeli lobbying for a lot of people.

kstenerud 7y ago

Israel and Saudi Arabia are America's eyes and ears into the Middle East. It could have been any nation (indeed, America tried to get Iran as well, but was... less than successful). These kinds of relationships require a fair bit of quid pro quo, and of course for a country like Israel whose very national security depends upon a cozy relationship with America, it's perfectly understandable that they'd be spying on American influencers wherever and whenever possible. In fact, it's unofficially tolerated in the intelligence service as a cost of doing business. Same goes for the foibles of the crown prince in Saudi Arabia (which have by now been conveniently forgotten by the press and everyone else). Once you've made friends who are useful to your grander plans, it's best to ignore the annoying things they do.

tracer4201 7y ago
It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily way of life isn’t so compatible with western values, especially with respect to religion in government (or freedom of, rather) and general human rights and women’s rights. Israel appears to be democratic but discriminates heavily and are also driven to a great extent by extremist hardliners and outright corruption (ie Netanyahu's numbers are down, so he wants to annex more of the West Bank). Also, you’re not supposed to criticize anything they do out of fear of being labeled an anti Semite.
- docdeek 7y ago
  Accepting your premise, is there a non-corrupt alternative in the region?
  - refurb 7y ago
    This is key. If your filter is to never partner with countries who have done unethical things, you're never going to partner with anyone.
  - domnomnom 7y ago
    Iran of course.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

KoftaBob 7y ago

The (well-intentioned) mistake you're making is assuming US officials' top priority is the greater interests of America, rather than their own personal interests. You could just as easily ask what the US gets out of the special relationship with Saudi Arabia, a country ruled by murderous tyrants, and the country of origin of the majority of the 9/11 highjackers. In the cases of both Israeli lobby influence and Saudi royal's influence, the answer is money and power. Our members of congress are very easily influenced by "donations", and those two groups happen to be particularly wealthy. On the flip side, the Mossad and many other intelligence groups are particularly good at getting blackmail material on politicians. If you don't play ball and you get in their way, they have the ability to ruin your career as well. In my opinion, I would say the turning point where the US started to prioritize Israel as an ally was after the Suez Crisis. "In October 1965 Eisenhower told Jewish fundraiser and Republican party supporter Max M. Fisher that he greatly regretted forcing Israel to withdraw from the Sinai peninsula; Vice-President Nixon recalled that Eisenhower expressed the same view to him on several occasions." [Alteras, Isaac (1993). Eisenhower and Israel: U.S.-Israeli Relations, 1953-1960]. After Eisenhower's presidency, JFK further strengthened this alliance: "As president, Kennedy initiated the creation of security ties with Israel, and he is credited as the founder of the US-Israeli military alliance, which would be continued under subsequent presidents. Kennedy ended the arms embargo that the Eisenhower and Truman administrations had enforced on Israel. Describing the protection of Israel as a moral and national commitment, he was the first to introduce the concept of a "special relationship" (as he described it to Golda Meir) between the US and Israel.[207]" One exception was when JFK resisted Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons, which they felt was crucial in their survival as a country. "In a May 1963 letter to Ben-Gurion, Kennedy wrote that he was skeptical and stated that American support to Israel could be in jeopardy if reliable information on the Israeli nuclear program was not forthcoming, Ben-Gurion repeated previous reassurances that Dimona was being developed for peaceful purposes." You'll note that he was assassinated only months later. Not to get all conspiracy theory, but I've always felt the timing was a bit suspect. Long story short, the US as a nation may not get much benefit from the relationship, but the individual politicians do. Until we get rid of the concept of lobbies, PACs, and require all campaigns to be tax-funded, politicians will continue to serve the countries and groups that pay them, not the American populace.

7y ago

balls187 7y ago

> What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing? It's tolerated because US engages in similar behavior against it's allies. Officially the perpetrator denies allegations, and unofficially they pay some undisclosed penance. The only real thing of note was the lack of official rebuke from the Trump Administration.

aphextim 7y ago

No idea, but they tolerated Israel blowing up a US navy ship and killing sailors so I'm sure they'll give this one a pass too. >The attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate," the NSA's director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress. >"I don't think you'll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental," Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview. >"I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing," said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs. >"So for me, the question really is who issued the order to do that and why? That's the really interesting thing." >The answer, if there is one, will probably never be known. Gen. Moshe Dayan, then the country's minister of defense; Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister; and Golda Meir, his successor, are all dead. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.h...