7 ms·

Where does the money come from, that the kids spend? Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? While I despise many of the techniques used in

Where does the money come from, that the kids spend? Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? While I despise many of the techniques used in modern games to make kids spend money, I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). One thing that cost us a lot of money for example are the "Panini collectible cards", that predate the computer era. I don't know if they are a thing in the US. Basically for soccer world cups and other events, you are supposed to collect all the pictures of all the players. You buy packs of 5 with random stickers, and you swap with your friends to fill the sticker book. It costs ridiculous amounts of money (easy to spend 100€ or more, on a book with some pictures). I grudgingly admitted to it, as it is almost a rite of passage in European childhoods and a learning experience to some degree.

_Understated_ 7y ago
Aw man, you're bringing back memories of my childhood here: I spent all my pocket money on those. Well, those and the chewing gum that had a "tattoo" in them :) I'm with you on the "what are the parents doing while this is going on?" camp. My son, now 8, plays some games on the iPad. He's got a bunch of Lego games and a couple of multiplayer games but he cannot interact with the other players except to fight on the same team: so no chatting or anything like that. In addition, he's been told he's not buying anything in-game and we've locked down the iPad so that he can't... in fact it pops up a message if he clicks anything to do with buying. We've used the default list of acceptable websites when you lock down the iPad. We may have removed a couple too and added Nickelodeon I think (for the games on it) and a couple of others but nothing like YouTube... that's pure shite imo! He moans sometimes that his pal has Fortnite and he plays it at his house sometimes but he's not getting it at our house. In all honesty a Google search and a bit of time is all it takes for parents to protect their kids online these days. No excuse.
- thirdsun 7y ago
  Reading this I can't help but think that Apple Arcade has to be a huge success with parents - a quality, woory-free gaming environment with fixed, affordable cost.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
They're definitely a thing in the US, maybe not Panini brand but there's a huge collectors market for baseball cards. Some have a resale values of hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I was never into these though, it's very much dependent on your own networks - is anyone else collecting them. I did have a short spat of Magic the Gathering though, but never to the point where I bought things off the trading market. I did sell off two rare cards for 30 odd euros apiece, which paid for most of what I had spent on cards. That was nice.
pingyong 7y ago
>Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? You can make the exact same argument for kids playing in online (or offline, really) casinos. And yet it is fairly widely accepted that this isn't a good idea. Online casinos have to jump through a million hoops in terms of age and identity verification. Where's the difference?
- kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
  I have no strong opinions about kids gambling in real casinos. Again, where does the money come from? Are there any studies showing gambling addiction can develop from exposure during childhood? I think I might actually have played a few slot machines in my youth. But pocket money was just enough for one round or so. I also plan on teaching my kids how to play Poker, I think it is a survival skill. When shit hits the fan, maybe they can play Poker with the captain of a ship to win a trip to safety.
falcolas 7y ago
> with much more money at stake You can literally spend tens of thousands of dollars in FIFA - most of these games don’t incorporate any kind of cap. Even Apex Legends recently had a limited time promotion that would require in excess of $200 to get everything. That’s right up there with gambling, cars, technology, and significant others when it comes to real life spending for most people.
- Kpourdeilami 7y ago
  Fifa is the biggest offender IMO, you can spend $10k on loot boxes and you'd still not get the top tier players in the game. Around $150 CAD gets you around 100,000 in-game coins considering average yield from loot boxes. A player like Ronaldo costs 2.5 to 3 million coins (aka $3750 to $4500) for the first 4-5 months of each game cycle. And he's not even the most expensive card in the game, some cards trade for 15 million coins. To unlock all the top players for your team, you'd probably have to spend way over $10k. To top if off, every Sept. a new game comes out and you have start from scratch
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Well, when they (publishers in general) put the chances at getting the good characters and skins behind "less than 1% chance", and fill the loot pool with useless cruft when there's an anti-dupe mechanism, it's going to be super expensive to get the exact character/skin you want.
  - kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
    You can play without Ronaldo, though? Who pays the 10k? Is it unsuspecting kids, or rich people who don't care?
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Addicted normal folks, usually. It’s really hard to tell how much you’ve spent, with all the auto purchases and currency redirects.
DanBC 7y ago
> Where does the money come from The report isn't just about the money being spent. It's also about introducing gambling mechanics to children at a young age. > acknowledge the distinction between licensed online gambling, social casino-style games that “have the look and feel of traditional gambling” but may not be licensed as such, and games containing features akin to gambling as one aspect of the overall product or game experience rather than the predominant quality.132 Our inquiry has focused on the latter, although the other two are both important issues that merit further consideration. > 69.Many games contain features that are highly similar to conventional gambling products, without gambling being the primary aim of the game. However, there are concerns that being exposed to such features from a young age might normalise gambling. One parent expressed concern that the game Bricky Farm, which is rated suitable for children, contains a gambling-like feature. He told us: > > Most worrying for me is a roulette style wheel mini-game whereby differing amounts of gems can be won for further advancement. This is where the game could become addictive to someone with a susceptibility but more than that it is introducing children as young as 4 to the ‘thrill’ of gambling.133 > 70.The parent’s concern is supported by Dr David Zendle’s acknowledgment “that a really good predictor of problem gambling is the social acceptance and availability” of it.134 Indeed, the Gambling Commission told us that the Advisory Board for Safer Gambling expressed concerns in response to the Online Harms White Paper about the associations between “gambling lite behaviours and children’s behaviours”.135 Furthermore, Brad Enright from the Gambling Commission told us that even when games do not meet the regulatory threshold for gambling, but contain gambling-like features, the regulator does: > > not think the current age ratings are in line with public expectation, so that should not be available for four-plus or even 12-plus.136
- kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
  I wonder how solid the knowledge about this is? Are there actual studies showing a risk from "gambling games" at young age inducing gambling addiction? From your quotes, it sounds more like individual opinions that actual scientific knowledge? Most games have a luck component, after all. Even Monopoly, to name one popular board game. I don't like Roulette Wheels in my children's games, ad I have certainly seen things I don't like. For example "garden scapes" even sends notifications on the tablet computer, that new "loot" is available (I forgot how they called it). Nevertheless, I see it as an opportunity to talk with my kids about such strategies.
dangerface 7y ago
> Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? It should be, but the kids pay the price. Most parents don't care because the gambling is disguised as a game, they make it hard to track spending by making you buy and spend fake money, this again reinforces the idea that it's not real money, it's all just a fun game. > I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). The money, games and people that are affected all exist in the real world, just because it's themed as a game does nothing to prevent the harm gambling can cause. Loot boxes aren't cheap [0] estimated $50 billion spent on loot boxes, there is serious money at stake comparable with the gambling industry [1] estimated $73 billion spent on online gambling. Game developers are able to get away with this practice because they push the idea that it's all just fun and games but its not, they have taken a gambling mechanic like for like its gambling. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/04/17/video-gamers-will-spending-50-billion-gambling-like-loot-box/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/04/17/video-game... [1] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-online-gambling-market-size-worth-usd-73-45-billion-by-2024-hexa-research-869794438.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-online-gambl...
rtkwe 7y ago
I think if we were starting to see these physical card packs now we would probably have a similar reaction as we're having to loot boxes but since they're older and a more normal part they're not getting as much scrutiny. Digital packs can do a lot more skinner boxing though with sound and visual cues going along with chest opening and the little dopamine hit for getting a rare item. One thing I will say is there is a big difference between the digital version of these loot box/card pack mechanics and the physical ones; it's way easier to just keep buying the digital packs, especially for kids who may have a loose grasp of money matters anyways. There's no total racking up where they can see it and their account will generally be link to their parents card where if they want to keep buying physical packs it'd be their own (probably physical) money. As for limiting that spending some places make it hard to limit the amount spent on child accounts until quite recently.
Slippery_John 7y ago
> Where does the money come from The magical credit card fairy. Parents who aren't into gaming or technology may not be aware of the risks that these games pose, and therefore are unprepared to properly supervise their children when playing such games. Historical methods used to signal parents like ESRB / PEGI ratings are deliberately unhelpful in the regard as they draw no distinction between gambling mechanics and more straightforward purchases. And even then those are fine-print addendums that don't impact the actual age rating. So you wind up with a situation where games with gambling mechanics are rated by PEGI as being suitable for children 3+, leading many to be unaware of the risks a particular game poses. In comparison, a game that introduces "real" gambling with cashout possibilities gets an "Adults Only" ESRB rating as a matter of course. And even those flimsy addendums are actively circumvented by game companies who will wait a month or so after launch to add in the gambling features, after the game has already been rated and warning labels have already been printed. In contrast, things like card packs or stickers are far easier to control. You give your child $20 and they can waste it as they please. Or they ask you for something and you buy it. Almost everybody intuitively understands that if you give your credit card to the child then you're playing with fire. Setting up a payment method in a game system is more risky in that credit cards are typically the only option (plus store gift cards that parents may not be aware of). Even so, it is not at all obvious to many just how much you can spend in a game. A child might ask for a $5 pack of loot boxes, and it seems reasonable. Then your numbers are in. If your child can then social engineer your password from you or get you to check the "don't ask for password" box then they have free reign. You might even knowingly do it because, again, it is not obvious that you can even spend that kind of money in a game.

_Understated_ 7y ago

Aw man, you're bringing back memories of my childhood here: I spent all my pocket money on those. Well, those and the chewing gum that had a "tattoo" in them :) I'm with you on the "what are the parents doing while this is going on?" camp. My son, now 8, plays some games on the iPad. He's got a bunch of Lego games and a couple of multiplayer games but he cannot interact with the other players except to fight on the same team: so no chatting or anything like that. In addition, he's been told he's not buying anything in-game and we've locked down the iPad so that he can't... in fact it pops up a message if he clicks anything to do with buying. We've used the default list of acceptable websites when you lock down the iPad. We may have removed a couple too and added Nickelodeon I think (for the games on it) and a couple of others but nothing like YouTube... that's pure shite imo! He moans sometimes that his pal has Fortnite and he plays it at his house sometimes but he's not getting it at our house. In all honesty a Google search and a bit of time is all it takes for parents to protect their kids online these days. No excuse.

thirdsun 7y ago
Reading this I can't help but think that Apple Arcade has to be a huge success with parents - a quality, woory-free gaming environment with fixed, affordable cost.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

They're definitely a thing in the US, maybe not Panini brand but there's a huge collectors market for baseball cards. Some have a resale values of hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I was never into these though, it's very much dependent on your own networks - is anyone else collecting them. I did have a short spat of Magic the Gathering though, but never to the point where I bought things off the trading market. I did sell off two rare cards for 30 odd euros apiece, which paid for most of what I had spent on cards. That was nice.

pingyong 7y ago

>Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? You can make the exact same argument for kids playing in online (or offline, really) casinos. And yet it is fairly widely accepted that this isn't a good idea. Online casinos have to jump through a million hoops in terms of age and identity verification. Where's the difference?

kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
I have no strong opinions about kids gambling in real casinos. Again, where does the money come from? Are there any studies showing gambling addiction can develop from exposure during childhood? I think I might actually have played a few slot machines in my youth. But pocket money was just enough for one round or so. I also plan on teaching my kids how to play Poker, I think it is a survival skill. When shit hits the fan, maybe they can play Poker with the captain of a ship to win a trip to safety.

falcolas 7y ago

> with much more money at stake You can literally spend tens of thousands of dollars in FIFA - most of these games don’t incorporate any kind of cap. Even Apex Legends recently had a limited time promotion that would require in excess of $200 to get everything. That’s right up there with gambling, cars, technology, and significant others when it comes to real life spending for most people.

Kpourdeilami 7y ago
Fifa is the biggest offender IMO, you can spend $10k on loot boxes and you'd still not get the top tier players in the game. Around $150 CAD gets you around 100,000 in-game coins considering average yield from loot boxes. A player like Ronaldo costs 2.5 to 3 million coins (aka $3750 to $4500) for the first 4-5 months of each game cycle. And he's not even the most expensive card in the game, some cards trade for 15 million coins. To unlock all the top players for your team, you'd probably have to spend way over $10k. To top if off, every Sept. a new game comes out and you have start from scratch
- falcolas 7y ago
  Well, when they (publishers in general) put the chances at getting the good characters and skins behind "less than 1% chance", and fill the loot pool with useless cruft when there's an anti-dupe mechanism, it's going to be super expensive to get the exact character/skin you want.
- kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
  You can play without Ronaldo, though? Who pays the 10k? Is it unsuspecting kids, or rich people who don't care?
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Addicted normal folks, usually. It’s really hard to tell how much you’ve spent, with all the auto purchases and currency redirects.

DanBC 7y ago

> Where does the money come from The report isn't just about the money being spent. It's also about introducing gambling mechanics to children at a young age. > acknowledge the distinction between licensed online gambling, social casino-style games that “have the look and feel of traditional gambling” but may not be licensed as such, and games containing features akin to gambling as one aspect of the overall product or game experience rather than the predominant quality.132 Our inquiry has focused on the latter, although the other two are both important issues that merit further consideration. > 69.Many games contain features that are highly similar to conventional gambling products, without gambling being the primary aim of the game. However, there are concerns that being exposed to such features from a young age might normalise gambling. One parent expressed concern that the game Bricky Farm, which is rated suitable for children, contains a gambling-like feature. He told us: > > Most worrying for me is a roulette style wheel mini-game whereby differing amounts of gems can be won for further advancement. This is where the game could become addictive to someone with a susceptibility but more than that it is introducing children as young as 4 to the ‘thrill’ of gambling.133 > 70.The parent’s concern is supported by Dr David Zendle’s acknowledgment “that a really good predictor of problem gambling is the social acceptance and availability” of it.134 Indeed, the Gambling Commission told us that the Advisory Board for Safer Gambling expressed concerns in response to the Online Harms White Paper about the associations between “gambling lite behaviours and children’s behaviours”.135 Furthermore, Brad Enright from the Gambling Commission told us that even when games do not meet the regulatory threshold for gambling, but contain gambling-like features, the regulator does: > > not think the current age ratings are in line with public expectation, so that should not be available for four-plus or even 12-plus.136

kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
I wonder how solid the knowledge about this is? Are there actual studies showing a risk from "gambling games" at young age inducing gambling addiction? From your quotes, it sounds more like individual opinions that actual scientific knowledge? Most games have a luck component, after all. Even Monopoly, to name one popular board game. I don't like Roulette Wheels in my children's games, ad I have certainly seen things I don't like. For example "garden scapes" even sends notifications on the tablet computer, that new "loot" is available (I forgot how they called it). Nevertheless, I see it as an opportunity to talk with my kids about such strategies.

dangerface 7y ago

> Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? It should be, but the kids pay the price. Most parents don't care because the gambling is disguised as a game, they make it hard to track spending by making you buy and spend fake money, this again reinforces the idea that it's not real money, it's all just a fun game. > I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). The money, games and people that are affected all exist in the real world, just because it's themed as a game does nothing to prevent the harm gambling can cause. Loot boxes aren't cheap [0] estimated $50 billion spent on loot boxes, there is serious money at stake comparable with the gambling industry [1] estimated $73 billion spent on online gambling. Game developers are able to get away with this practice because they push the idea that it's all just fun and games but its not, they have taken a gambling mechanic like for like its gambling. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/04/17/video-gamers-will-spending-50-billion-gambling-like-loot-box/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/04/17/video-game... [1] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-online-gambling-market-size-worth-usd-73-45-billion-by-2024-hexa-research-869794438.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-online-gambl...

rtkwe 7y ago

I think if we were starting to see these physical card packs now we would probably have a similar reaction as we're having to loot boxes but since they're older and a more normal part they're not getting as much scrutiny. Digital packs can do a lot more skinner boxing though with sound and visual cues going along with chest opening and the little dopamine hit for getting a rare item. One thing I will say is there is a big difference between the digital version of these loot box/card pack mechanics and the physical ones; it's way easier to just keep buying the digital packs, especially for kids who may have a loose grasp of money matters anyways. There's no total racking up where they can see it and their account will generally be link to their parents card where if they want to keep buying physical packs it'd be their own (probably physical) money. As for limiting that spending some places make it hard to limit the amount spent on child accounts until quite recently.

Slippery_John 7y ago

> Where does the money come from The magical credit card fairy. Parents who aren't into gaming or technology may not be aware of the risks that these games pose, and therefore are unprepared to properly supervise their children when playing such games. Historical methods used to signal parents like ESRB / PEGI ratings are deliberately unhelpful in the regard as they draw no distinction between gambling mechanics and more straightforward purchases. And even then those are fine-print addendums that don't impact the actual age rating. So you wind up with a situation where games with gambling mechanics are rated by PEGI as being suitable for children 3+, leading many to be unaware of the risks a particular game poses. In comparison, a game that introduces "real" gambling with cashout possibilities gets an "Adults Only" ESRB rating as a matter of course. And even those flimsy addendums are actively circumvented by game companies who will wait a month or so after launch to add in the gambling features, after the game has already been rated and warning labels have already been printed. In contrast, things like card packs or stickers are far easier to control. You give your child $20 and they can waste it as they please. Or they ask you for something and you buy it. Almost everybody intuitively understands that if you give your credit card to the child then you're playing with fire. Setting up a payment method in a game system is more risky in that credit cards are typically the only option (plus store gift cards that parents may not be aware of). Even so, it is not at all obvious to many just how much you can spend in a game. A child might ask for a $5 pack of loot boxes, and it seems reasonable. Then your numbers are in. If your child can then social engineer your password from you or get you to check the "don't ask for password" box then they have free reign. You might even knowingly do it because, again, it is not obvious that you can even spend that kind of money in a game.