5 ms·

I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even more possi

I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even more possibilities." But I disagree with your other statement: "Learn CS (and math) with a formal education". You can learn CS from internet. https://github.com/ossu/computer-science https://github.com/ossu/computer-science https://teachyourselfcs.com/ https://teachyourselfcs.com/ In the first link, it is said you need roughly 2 years to master core CS. Actually, I have a wild fantasy. I build a startup like Lambda School but it is not supervised. So I give money to motivated students. This money cover their living cost for 2 or 3 years, internet, and a decent laptop. They have to spend 10 hours per day, 6 days per week to learn CS. After finishing the study, they can repay back my money with some interest (capped to a number) only if they find a proper job. If they can not find a proper job for 5 years, the debt is forgiven. But this is just my wild fantasy. :)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even more possibilities." Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. In tech here, unless you have x years experience in the latest tech(.net, typescript, Node, etc.) you ain't getting any job regardless of your CS degree. Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted, I'm only expressing my experience on the market here in Europe as a engineer with 6 years of C&C++ experience, with BS in CS and a MS in Embedded systems, and web shops have declined to interview me citing I don't have enough experience with the latest web languages and frameworks. Perhaps people feel that ageism and obsolescence won't happen to them.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  I guess I only worked for archaic engineering companies then. Outside a couple of startups with dubious prognostic of success, I never saw a CV going through HR for IT department without having higher education degree, with the exception of technical students. And in most European countries one doesn't get to sign Engineer on formal documents (from law point of view) without the proper tile certification.
  - ido 7y ago
    I've worked in lots of places where having a degree was not a requirement to get hired but certainly a lot (especially bigger) companies value an education. I would say that the more accurate statement is that enough valuable work-experience can alleviate the need for a degree but degrees are far from worthless.
    - collyw 7y ago
      Some of the best as well as some of the worst developers I have worked with had no formal CS education. (The worst ones got in through biology -> bioinformatics, the best ones through gaming and setting up networks and general enthusiasm for the subject).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pts_ 7y ago
  Is .Net better regarded than Java in Europe?
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Europe is not a single entity in tech, you have to check out your area(country, city) what prevails the most.
- EliRivers 7y ago
  Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. I regularly hire people into a commercial software company in Europe, and I don't inherently care about your degree, but I do care about you understanding a broad range of the fundamentals, and in the absence of a CS degree (which does happen) I have to spend extra time assessing an applicant's understanding of the fundamentals. Recently hired a fresh grad without a CS degree for a C++ programming position, and his interview was a bit longer than usual while we ran over those basics. The degree IS a form of signalling; it signals "I probably have a grasp of the basics".
  - guitarbill 7y ago
    We can argue about "fundamentals", but I'm happy hiring non-CS grads. Because for us, "fundamentals" are things like "can you work in a team?", "can you write/communicate well?", "can you grasp real-world workflows/issues/bottlenecks real people have using products?", and "will you try the simplest thing first?". Other degrees offer the same or more opportunities to hone these skills. It's easy for senior engineers on the team to address gaps in CS knowledge, but much harder to address a lack of soft skills, writing, or over-designing/too much abstraction (because you were taught the patterns, but not when to use them). I could go on, but IMO, this is why interviews are still so broken, and why the field of software development still faces the same issues it always has. Granted, I'm not building a DB, but compared to maintenance and over-engineering, performance is rarely an issue, and easily solved via profiling.
    - EliRivers 7y ago
      My fundamentals include a basic knowledge of algorithms, data structures and essentially just how to think about problems in a way that solutions can be programmatically represented. Basically, can you write simple software? Everything you mentioned is also needed, but I really, first and foremost, need them to be able to write some simple software. If they can't do that, I really can't afford to teach them. A CS degree often makes this check simpler than for the candidates with other educations, such as the history degree holder we have. If you don't need that then sure, it's a different hiring game for you.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. That’s also true in the US outside of the HN/Silicon Valley bubble...
- jbergens 7y ago
  My guess is that c/c++ experience is really good when you apply for a c or c++ job. If you apply for a web developer job mostly consisting of html+css+js it might not be seen as a plus. Even for c# and java jobs c++ experience is somewhat good but not perfect. My view has been that the experience is good but not enough, you must show a willingness to learn other things and work in other languages and any experience in the languages actually used trumps a lot of other things.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    How do you show that when you're no even invited to the interviews in the first place? HR looks at your resume first when screening, not your willingness to learn.
austenallred 7y ago
> Actually, I have a wild fantasy. I build a startup like Lambda School but it is not supervised. So I give money to motivated students. This money cover their living cost for 2 or 3 years, internet, and a decent laptop. They have to spend 10 hours per day, 6 days per week to learn CS. After finishing the study, they can repay back my money with some interest (capped to a number) only if they find a proper job. That was exactly the notion of modern labor, in Y Combinator last year. It lasted six months until it learned that teaching yourself CS is much more difficult than it sounds, almost everyone had given up, then they pivoted.
- yorwba 7y ago
  Modern Labor in March 2019: "We Pay You to Learn to Code. Modern Labor is a revolutionary platform that pays you $2000 per month for 5 months to learn in-demand tech skills and then finds you your new job." http://web.archive.org/web/20190320144627/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190320144627/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in April 2019: "We Grow Tech Talent. Modern Labor is a revolutionary platform that grows talent for technical roles at your company." http://web.archive.org/web/20190412130518/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190412130518/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in May 2019: "Hire Tech Talent On-Demand. Modern Labor is a highly-selective talent network of US-based tech professionals to help you build tech teams when you need them." http://web.archive.org/web/20190501133947/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190501133947/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in August 2019: "Hire technical talent fast. Modern Labor partners with companies to help them find and hire technical talent quickly and easily." http://web.archive.org/web/20190831055322/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190831055322/https://modernlabo... Fascinating to watch their transition from revolutionary platform to ordinary recruiting agency.
  - j45 7y ago
    Revolution and disruption is sometimes needs more than words, evolution or fitting in. Increasingly it looks like finding small new interactions that can repeat and spread.
- langitbiru 7y ago
ptah 7y ago
> You can learn CS from internet. I strongly disagree. You need real professors TAs and project work, deadlines,exams etc.
- username90 7y ago
  Depends on what you already know, for example a math grad should have little problems self teaching CS with the internet.
ohduran 7y ago
Going through ossu at the moment, highly recommended. Coming from a Physics background and working as a SE, it gives me the tools I need to "catch up" on my own terms. Edit: Typo
mnky9800n 7y ago
I don't understand why your fantasy includes working people far more hours than us necessary in a year.
- j45 7y ago
  Everyone's learning curve and trajectory is different and often with the similar potential outcomes.
- langitbiru 7y ago
  Basically it is my reflection. If I were to get this kind of chance, I would work myself to the bone (hence 60 hours per week) and 60 hours * 3 years = 9000 hours. So after 3 years, I would have a really strong CS foundation. But you have a point. What is suitable for me may not be suitable for other people.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

>I agree with your statement: "If you have a good grounding in CS, you have longevity. Couple that with a good math background, and then you have even more possibilities." Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. In tech here, unless you have x years experience in the latest tech(.net, typescript, Node, etc.) you ain't getting any job regardless of your CS degree. Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted, I'm only expressing my experience on the market here in Europe as a engineer with 6 years of C&C++ experience, with BS in CS and a MS in Embedded systems, and web shops have declined to interview me citing I don't have enough experience with the latest web languages and frameworks. Perhaps people feel that ageism and obsolescence won't happen to them.

pjmlp 7y ago
I guess I only worked for archaic engineering companies then. Outside a couple of startups with dubious prognostic of success, I never saw a CV going through HR for IT department without having higher education degree, with the exception of technical students. And in most European countries one doesn't get to sign Engineer on formal documents (from law point of view) without the proper tile certification.
- ido 7y ago
  I've worked in lots of places where having a degree was not a requirement to get hired but certainly a lot (especially bigger) companies value an education. I would say that the more accurate statement is that enough valuable work-experience can alleviate the need for a degree but degrees are far from worthless.
  - collyw 7y ago
    Some of the best as well as some of the worst developers I have worked with had no formal CS education. (The worst ones got in through biology -> bioinformatics, the best ones through gaming and setting up networks and general enthusiasm for the subject).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pts_ 7y ago
Is .Net better regarded than Java in Europe?
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Europe is not a single entity in tech, you have to check out your area(country, city) what prevails the most.
EliRivers 7y ago
Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. I regularly hire people into a commercial software company in Europe, and I don't inherently care about your degree, but I do care about you understanding a broad range of the fundamentals, and in the absence of a CS degree (which does happen) I have to spend extra time assessing an applicant's understanding of the fundamentals. Recently hired a fresh grad without a CS degree for a C++ programming position, and his interview was a bit longer than usual while we ran over those basics. The degree IS a form of signalling; it signals "I probably have a grasp of the basics".
- guitarbill 7y ago
  We can argue about "fundamentals", but I'm happy hiring non-CS grads. Because for us, "fundamentals" are things like "can you work in a team?", "can you write/communicate well?", "can you grasp real-world workflows/issues/bottlenecks real people have using products?", and "will you try the simplest thing first?". Other degrees offer the same or more opportunities to hone these skills. It's easy for senior engineers on the team to address gaps in CS knowledge, but much harder to address a lack of soft skills, writing, or over-designing/too much abstraction (because you were taught the patterns, but not when to use them). I could go on, but IMO, this is why interviews are still so broken, and why the field of software development still faces the same issues it always has. Granted, I'm not building a DB, but compared to maintenance and over-engineering, performance is rarely an issue, and easily solved via profiling.
  - EliRivers 7y ago
    My fundamentals include a basic knowledge of algorithms, data structures and essentially just how to think about problems in a way that solutions can be programmatically represented. Basically, can you write simple software? Everything you mentioned is also needed, but I really, first and foremost, need them to be able to write some simple software. If they can't do that, I really can't afford to teach them. A CS degree often makes this check simpler than for the candidates with other educations, such as the history degree holder we have. If you don't need that then sure, it's a different hiring game for you.
scarface74 7y ago
Maybe in the US or SV but in Europe nobody outside research, academia and archaic engineering companies where a degree is a form of signaling, care about your degrees. That’s also true in the US outside of the HN/Silicon Valley bubble...
jbergens 7y ago
My guess is that c/c++ experience is really good when you apply for a c or c++ job. If you apply for a web developer job mostly consisting of html+css+js it might not be seen as a plus. Even for c# and java jobs c++ experience is somewhat good but not perfect. My view has been that the experience is good but not enough, you must show a willingness to learn other things and work in other languages and any experience in the languages actually used trumps a lot of other things.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  How do you show that when you're no even invited to the interviews in the first place? HR looks at your resume first when screening, not your willingness to learn.

austenallred 7y ago

> Actually, I have a wild fantasy. I build a startup like Lambda School but it is not supervised. So I give money to motivated students. This money cover their living cost for 2 or 3 years, internet, and a decent laptop. They have to spend 10 hours per day, 6 days per week to learn CS. After finishing the study, they can repay back my money with some interest (capped to a number) only if they find a proper job. That was exactly the notion of modern labor, in Y Combinator last year. It lasted six months until it learned that teaching yourself CS is much more difficult than it sounds, almost everyone had given up, then they pivoted.

yorwba 7y ago
Modern Labor in March 2019: "We Pay You to Learn to Code. Modern Labor is a revolutionary platform that pays you $2000 per month for 5 months to learn in-demand tech skills and then finds you your new job." http://web.archive.org/web/20190320144627/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190320144627/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in April 2019: "We Grow Tech Talent. Modern Labor is a revolutionary platform that grows talent for technical roles at your company." http://web.archive.org/web/20190412130518/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190412130518/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in May 2019: "Hire Tech Talent On-Demand. Modern Labor is a highly-selective talent network of US-based tech professionals to help you build tech teams when you need them." http://web.archive.org/web/20190501133947/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190501133947/https://modernlabo... Modern Labor in August 2019: "Hire technical talent fast. Modern Labor partners with companies to help them find and hire technical talent quickly and easily." http://web.archive.org/web/20190831055322/https://modernlabor.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20190831055322/https://modernlabo... Fascinating to watch their transition from revolutionary platform to ordinary recruiting agency.
- j45 7y ago
  Revolution and disruption is sometimes needs more than words, evolution or fitting in. Increasingly it looks like finding small new interactions that can repeat and spread.
langitbiru 7y ago

ptah 7y ago

> You can learn CS from internet. I strongly disagree. You need real professors TAs and project work, deadlines,exams etc.

username90 7y ago
Depends on what you already know, for example a math grad should have little problems self teaching CS with the internet.

ohduran 7y ago

Going through ossu at the moment, highly recommended. Coming from a Physics background and working as a SE, it gives me the tools I need to "catch up" on my own terms. Edit: Typo

mnky9800n 7y ago

I don't understand why your fantasy includes working people far more hours than us necessary in a year.

j45 7y ago
Everyone's learning curve and trajectory is different and often with the similar potential outcomes.
langitbiru 7y ago
Basically it is my reflection. If I were to get this kind of chance, I would work myself to the bone (hence 60 hours per week) and 60 hours * 3 years = 9000 hours. So after 3 years, I would have a really strong CS foundation. But you have a point. What is suitable for me may not be suitable for other people.