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Requiring a browser and requiring social media credentials are both misfeatures in my book. Browsers are excellent tools.. for spying on users. And for as b

Requiring a browser and requiring social media credentials are both misfeatures in my book. Browsers are excellent tools.. for spying on users. And for as benign as github in particular may seem, we shouldn't be replacing standard internet protocols with products that promote and further normalize the expectation that people have a social media account.

dpark 7y ago
> Requiring a browser You realize we’re talking about Mozilla, right? > requiring social media They’re explicitly choosing between social media platforms...
- partialrecall 7y ago
  My point is that any social media platform is not an acceptable IRC requirement, nor is requiring a social media account an acceptable requirement for any IRC requirement. And Mozilla, more than perhaps anybody else, should be aware that web browsers facilitate surveillance of users.
  - dpark 7y ago
    IRC is a social media platform. The fact that it predates Github by two decades doesn’t mean it’s not social media. I don’t know know what you’re actually opposed to. A blanket disapproval of “social media” isn’t particularly meaningful, so there’s nothing of substance in your complaint to respond to. I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. If a nation state or corporation can compromise your browser, they can realistically compromise your entire OS.
    - partialrecall 7y ago
      I think you know exactly what I'm referring to and are trying to drag the conversation into the weeds of vocabulary pedantry. I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world. You know that's what I'm talking about. Freenode is a far cry from facebook. >I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. Because that's simply factually the case? IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. With an IRC client if any third party code execution occurs, it's due to an exploit in the client. On the other hand with web browsers, servers sending malicious scripts for the browser to run is par for the course. Typical modern web browsers (even Mozilla's own) are total disasters, particularly in their default configuration. Why the hell aren't they shipping with resist-fingerprinting turned on by default? Because it would mildly inconvenience some users, and despite all their good intentions and positive words, they still prioritize user perception of convenience over privacy.
      - dpark 7y ago
        > I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. Then say that instead of rambling about social media like a tinfoil hatter. It’s totally fine if you don’t want to support Facebook or Github or Twitter. This isn’t just about “social media”, though. > IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. There’s so much here to unpack. If you choose to use a communication tool that adds tracking scripts to your browser, then you have chosen to use a tool that tracks you. If Slack, for example, is sending your browser tracking beacons, then the problem is Slack and not the browser. The same issue could apply to your IRC client if you chose poorly. The same can also be said of the IRC server you connect to. Indeed Mozilla is currently running their own IRC server and undoubtedly can track you if you choose to use their communication platform. Best I can tell, what you actually want is to have the ability to use any client divorced from the service, and also to avoid your login being tracked by any “social media” service. I can understand the latter even if I don’t particularly care about that myself. The former is essentially pining for the early days of the internet when browsers rendered only text, and essentially no one actually cared about them. Essentially any platform that reaches a high level of richness supports tracking you. Email has the exact same issue because it supports images from servers. And yeah you can fix it, but only by giving up the richness that users actually want.
        partialrecall 7y ago
        > Then say that What, say this "The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world." instead of "social media"? Why? To be needlessly verbose for fun and kicks? No thanks. > "tinfoil hatter." Well screw you too I guess? I don't appreciate your characterization at all.
        dpark 7y ago
        > What, say this "The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world." instead of "social media"? Why? To be needlessly verbose for fun and kicks? No thanks. No. The “internet companies who turn user data into an asset“ part. i.e. Something concrete about your criticism rather than point to an extremely vague category. I think you could probably be more specific still, but at least now I have an idea what you don’t like about “social media” and why you don’t apply that criticism to IRC.
ascorbic 7y ago
Considering the fact that they disqualified several options for not working with Mozilla IAM, I doubt they'll be requiring social media login.

dpark 7y ago

> Requiring a browser You realize we’re talking about Mozilla, right? > requiring social media They’re explicitly choosing between social media platforms...

partialrecall 7y ago
My point is that any social media platform is not an acceptable IRC requirement, nor is requiring a social media account an acceptable requirement for any IRC requirement. And Mozilla, more than perhaps anybody else, should be aware that web browsers facilitate surveillance of users.
- dpark 7y ago
  IRC is a social media platform. The fact that it predates Github by two decades doesn’t mean it’s not social media. I don’t know know what you’re actually opposed to. A blanket disapproval of “social media” isn’t particularly meaningful, so there’s nothing of substance in your complaint to respond to. I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. If a nation state or corporation can compromise your browser, they can realistically compromise your entire OS.
  - partialrecall 7y ago
    I think you know exactly what I'm referring to and are trying to drag the conversation into the weeds of vocabulary pedantry. I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world. You know that's what I'm talking about. Freenode is a far cry from facebook. >I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. Because that's simply factually the case? IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. With an IRC client if any third party code execution occurs, it's due to an exploit in the client. On the other hand with web browsers, servers sending malicious scripts for the browser to run is par for the course. Typical modern web browsers (even Mozilla's own) are total disasters, particularly in their default configuration. Why the hell aren't they shipping with resist-fingerprinting turned on by default? Because it would mildly inconvenience some users, and despite all their good intentions and positive words, they still prioritize user perception of convenience over privacy.
    - dpark 7y ago
      > I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. Then say that instead of rambling about social media like a tinfoil hatter. It’s totally fine if you don’t want to support Facebook or Github or Twitter. This isn’t just about “social media”, though. > IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. There’s so much here to unpack. If you choose to use a communication tool that adds tracking scripts to your browser, then you have chosen to use a tool that tracks you. If Slack, for example, is sending your browser tracking beacons, then the problem is Slack and not the browser. The same issue could apply to your IRC client if you chose poorly. The same can also be said of the IRC server you connect to. Indeed Mozilla is currently running their own IRC server and undoubtedly can track you if you choose to use their communication platform. Best I can tell, what you actually want is to have the ability to use any client divorced from the service, and also to avoid your login being tracked by any “social media” service. I can understand the latter even if I don’t particularly care about that myself. The former is essentially pining for the early days of the internet when browsers rendered only text, and essentially no one actually cared about them. Essentially any platform that reaches a high level of richness supports tracking you. Email has the exact same issue because it supports images from servers. And yeah you can fix it, but only by giving up the richness that users actually want.
      - partialrecall 7y ago
        > Then say that What, say this "The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world." instead of "social media"? Why? To be needlessly verbose for fun and kicks? No thanks. > "tinfoil hatter." Well screw you too I guess? I don't appreciate your characterization at all.
        dpark 7y ago
        > What, say this "The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world." instead of "social media"? Why? To be needlessly verbose for fun and kicks? No thanks. No. The “internet companies who turn user data into an asset“ part. i.e. Something concrete about your criticism rather than point to an extremely vague category. I think you could probably be more specific still, but at least now I have an idea what you don’t like about “social media” and why you don’t apply that criticism to IRC.

ascorbic 7y ago

Considering the fact that they disqualified several options for not working with Mozilla IAM, I doubt they'll be requiring social media login.