7 ms·

Students don't study CS for 4 years full-time. They study CS modules for 18 months, some of which are things like chemistry and physics and pretty unrelated to

Students don't study CS for 4 years full-time. They study CS modules for 18 months, some of which are things like chemistry and physics and pretty unrelated to CS (though valuable things to learn generally) and only a part of a day in each. You're not actually going 8,000 hours on CS - nowhere close to it. If you spent time looking at how much time students spent (in and out of class) on CS and math topics, it's way less than you'd assume.

codingdave 7y ago
Well now I'm curious. What are you assuming that I'd assume? FWIW, I assume little. I have a degree and know the effort that went into it, and am well versed in how courses are distributed in and out of your major over 4 years of study. I'm not engaging in this discussion to say one is better than the other... I'm saying they are different. Different schools, for different purposes, serving different people.
- austenallred 7y ago
  Fair enough. I'd guess on average 500-800 hours spent actually studying and writing code in CS-related topics & math.
learc83 7y ago
There is a saturation point for learning. A 1 year program where you spend 20 hours a week studying a subject is not equivalent to a 3 month program where you spend 80 hours a week studying.
- austenallred 7y ago
  That's not what the research shows, given a properly structured learning environment. Research actually shows the losses are much greater due to context switching than to saturation.
  - learc83 7y ago
    Please show me the research that says there is no saturation point to learning.
    - Smithalicious 7y ago
      The burden of proof is on you for showing that there is one.
      - learc83 7y ago
        I'm not the one who said "The research shows". The status quo is the 4 year degree. If you think that your 9 month degree is better, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        That's not how science or epistemology works. The answer to any question is "I don't know" until you have some kind of research backing an answer. There is no default answer that something does or does not exist or is or is not true.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    You still need spaced repetition for actual retention of the skill. Though it is easier to recover a forgotten well learned skill. It's also known in layman terms as practice. 9 months of cramming is not good enough. Neither is 4 years of tests without actually using the taught things in practice and laboratory exercises. And preferably also homework. Source: SuperMemo research, Piotr Woźniak and his citations. No reason why it wouldn't apply to CS or programming. The amount of information useful requires essentially lifelong interleaved focused learning at least hour a day. You can also maybe pick some things up in a job, but these have stricter limits.
    - austenallred 7y ago
      Spaced repetition does not necessitate spending few hours learning per day. That’s not what the research says at all.
cf141q5325 7y ago
Looking at the discussion here, i think there might be a problem regarding peoples frame of reference and vocabulary. What you describe applies to the US, in Europe your bachelor degree consists of 180 -240 ECTS (European Credit Transfer and Accumulation System), with 60 ECTS being equivalent to a year of full time study. The 180 / 240 ECTS are almost exclusively from your field of study. Unless you have a very specialized degree, you wont have any chemistry in your CS degree. The only exceptions for non-CS material is what fundamentals you need for your degree, so for example the mathematical background or scientific writing.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  That amazes me. What do Europeans think of their counterparts that have studied half as much professional material?
  - cf141q5325 7y ago
    I cant really answer that, as i never had any contact with an US curriculum. The introduction of the ECTS was however highly controversial at least in Germany. Before the Bologna Process German universities had the "Diplom" taking no less then 4,5 years for CS. The introduction of the bachelor with down to only 180ects, so only 3 years, was seen as cheapening the education severely. Universities generally dont see themselves as preparing you for the job market, but instead provide you with the prerequisites to enable you to contribute novel ideas to your field in form of a doctoral degree. That almost every CS job requires at least a bachelor degree is just an side effect from the point of view of the university. An often mentioned criticism was the government selling out the education system so companies could quicker get new employees. Quantity over quality. As a result, you still find a high percentage of students automatically adding a masters to get the equivalent of a "real degree", with some universities not changing much in the structure of their diplom curriculum, awarding you a bachelors degree after 3 years but expecting you to finish the rest. There is however also the opposite in the form of an (payed, but badly payed) 3 year apprenticeship training after school. You can become an "IT specialist" without going to university and even without the prerequisite school years to start university (normally successfully finishing grade 13 and thus getting your "Abitur"). You can start the training once you successfully finished your 10th schoolyear and thus getting your "Realschulabschluss". The 3 years are 50/50 professional school and working in a company. Looking at the curriculum of one of the first schools in google, they have in total between 880 and 960 school hours. Depending on your focus, 300-400 hours of "Information and telecommunication systems", 200-300 hours of application development, 200 hours of econ and business processes and ,due to accepting people who finished with 10th grade, 60-100 hours of English lessons. IT specialist here means either becoming a sysadmin or a coder.

codingdave 7y ago

Well now I'm curious. What are you assuming that I'd assume? FWIW, I assume little. I have a degree and know the effort that went into it, and am well versed in how courses are distributed in and out of your major over 4 years of study. I'm not engaging in this discussion to say one is better than the other... I'm saying they are different. Different schools, for different purposes, serving different people.

austenallred 7y ago
Fair enough. I'd guess on average 500-800 hours spent actually studying and writing code in CS-related topics & math.

learc83 7y ago

There is a saturation point for learning. A 1 year program where you spend 20 hours a week studying a subject is not equivalent to a 3 month program where you spend 80 hours a week studying.

austenallred 7y ago
That's not what the research shows, given a properly structured learning environment. Research actually shows the losses are much greater due to context switching than to saturation.
- learc83 7y ago
  Please show me the research that says there is no saturation point to learning.
  - Smithalicious 7y ago
    The burden of proof is on you for showing that there is one.
    - learc83 7y ago
      I'm not the one who said "The research shows". The status quo is the 4 year degree. If you think that your 9 month degree is better, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      That's not how science or epistemology works. The answer to any question is "I don't know" until you have some kind of research backing an answer. There is no default answer that something does or does not exist or is or is not true.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  You still need spaced repetition for actual retention of the skill. Though it is easier to recover a forgotten well learned skill. It's also known in layman terms as practice. 9 months of cramming is not good enough. Neither is 4 years of tests without actually using the taught things in practice and laboratory exercises. And preferably also homework. Source: SuperMemo research, Piotr Woźniak and his citations. No reason why it wouldn't apply to CS or programming. The amount of information useful requires essentially lifelong interleaved focused learning at least hour a day. You can also maybe pick some things up in a job, but these have stricter limits.
  - austenallred 7y ago
    Spaced repetition does not necessitate spending few hours learning per day. That’s not what the research says at all.

cf141q5325 7y ago

Looking at the discussion here, i think there might be a problem regarding peoples frame of reference and vocabulary. What you describe applies to the US, in Europe your bachelor degree consists of 180 -240 ECTS (European Credit Transfer and Accumulation System), with 60 ECTS being equivalent to a year of full time study. The 180 / 240 ECTS are almost exclusively from your field of study. Unless you have a very specialized degree, you wont have any chemistry in your CS degree. The only exceptions for non-CS material is what fundamentals you need for your degree, so for example the mathematical background or scientific writing.

lonelappde 7y ago
That amazes me. What do Europeans think of their counterparts that have studied half as much professional material?
- cf141q5325 7y ago
  I cant really answer that, as i never had any contact with an US curriculum. The introduction of the ECTS was however highly controversial at least in Germany. Before the Bologna Process German universities had the "Diplom" taking no less then 4,5 years for CS. The introduction of the bachelor with down to only 180ects, so only 3 years, was seen as cheapening the education severely. Universities generally dont see themselves as preparing you for the job market, but instead provide you with the prerequisites to enable you to contribute novel ideas to your field in form of a doctoral degree. That almost every CS job requires at least a bachelor degree is just an side effect from the point of view of the university. An often mentioned criticism was the government selling out the education system so companies could quicker get new employees. Quantity over quality. As a result, you still find a high percentage of students automatically adding a masters to get the equivalent of a "real degree", with some universities not changing much in the structure of their diplom curriculum, awarding you a bachelors degree after 3 years but expecting you to finish the rest. There is however also the opposite in the form of an (payed, but badly payed) 3 year apprenticeship training after school. You can become an "IT specialist" without going to university and even without the prerequisite school years to start university (normally successfully finishing grade 13 and thus getting your "Abitur"). You can start the training once you successfully finished your 10th schoolyear and thus getting your "Realschulabschluss". The 3 years are 50/50 professional school and working in a company. Looking at the curriculum of one of the first schools in google, they have in total between 880 and 960 school hours. Depending on your focus, 300-400 hours of "Information and telecommunication systems", 200-300 hours of application development, 200 hours of econ and business processes and ,due to accepting people who finished with 10th grade, 60-100 hours of English lessons. IT specialist here means either becoming a sysadmin or a coder.