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My experiences as an infrequent IRC user over many years: - hmm, I have to download a client? maybe I can access a web interface? - okay, I have this connecti

by radus 7y ago

My experiences as an infrequent IRC user over many years: - hmm, I have to download a client? maybe I can access a web interface? - okay, I have this connection string/url - how do I join a channel? - how do I set my nickname? is this persistent? - oh someone else is using my name? is this for the channel or the server?? - what's the etiquette of this particular channel? (I realize this is probably the case for any chat, but it seems like etiquette is much more vaunted in IRC) vs. zulip - enter url in browser - login with my github credentials .... that's it

partialrecall 7y ago
Requiring a browser and requiring social media credentials are both misfeatures in my book. Browsers are excellent tools.. for spying on users. And for as benign as github in particular may seem, we shouldn't be replacing standard internet protocols with products that promote and further normalize the expectation that people have a social media account.
- dpark 7y ago
  > Requiring a browser You realize we’re talking about Mozilla, right? > requiring social media They’re explicitly choosing between social media platforms...
  - partialrecall 7y ago
    My point is that any social media platform is not an acceptable IRC requirement, nor is requiring a social media account an acceptable requirement for any IRC requirement. And Mozilla, more than perhaps anybody else, should be aware that web browsers facilitate surveillance of users.
    - dpark 7y ago
      IRC is a social media platform. The fact that it predates Github by two decades doesn’t mean it’s not social media. I don’t know know what you’re actually opposed to. A blanket disapproval of “social media” isn’t particularly meaningful, so there’s nothing of substance in your complaint to respond to. I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. If a nation state or corporation can compromise your browser, they can realistically compromise your entire OS.
      - partialrecall 7y ago
        I think you know exactly what I'm referring to and are trying to drag the conversation into the weeds of vocabulary pedantry. I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world. You know that's what I'm talking about. Freenode is a far cry from facebook. >I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. Because that's simply factually the case? IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. With an IRC client if any third party code execution occurs, it's due to an exploit in the client. On the other hand with web browsers, servers sending malicious scripts for the browser to run is par for the course. Typical modern web browsers (even Mozilla's own) are total disasters, particularly in their default configuration. Why the hell aren't they shipping with resist-fingerprinting turned on by default? Because it would mildly inconvenience some users, and despite all their good intentions and positive words, they still prioritize user perception of convenience over privacy.
        dpark 7y ago
        > I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. Then say that instead of rambling about social media like a tinfoil hatter. It’s totally fine if you don’t want to support Facebook or Github or Twitter. This isn’t just about “social media”, though. > IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. There’s so much here to unpack. If you choose to use a communication tool that adds tracking scripts to your browser, then you have chosen to use a tool that tracks you. If Slack, for example, is sending your browser tracking beacons, then the problem is Slack and not the browser. The same issue could apply to your IRC client if you chose poorly. The same can also be said of the IRC server you connect to. Indeed Mozilla is currently running their own IRC server and undoubtedly can track you if you choose to use their communication platform. Best I can tell, what you actually want is to have the ability to use any client divorced from the service, and also to avoid your login being tracked by any “social media” service. I can understand the latter even if I don’t particularly care about that myself. The former is essentially pining for the early days of the internet when browsers rendered only text, and essentially no one actually cared about them. Essentially any platform that reaches a high level of richness supports tracking you. Email has the exact same issue because it supports images from servers. And yeah you can fix it, but only by giving up the richness that users actually want.
- ascorbic 7y ago
  Considering the fact that they disqualified several options for not working with Mozilla IAM, I doubt they'll be requiring social media login.
TingPing 7y ago
Nothing prevents a nearly identical frontend to IRC.
- Avamander 7y ago
  Would love to see one.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
requiring a single commercial entity like github is a really bad idea. Sure it'll be fine for a few years but when github goes belly up or gets bought and the new CEO cuts all extraneous projects, then you're hosed.
- soperj 7y ago
  You realize they're owned by Microsoft yes?
  - cocoa19 7y ago
    That's counting on Microsoft taking good care of GitHub and maintaining its goodwill. It might or might not be well managed in the years to come. Case in point, Skype. It was "the" tool to use for office communication. Hardly anyone I know uses Skype nowadays.
    - alexhutcheson 7y ago
      Skype is still pretty big in the enterprise chat space.
      - gregknicholson 7y ago
        Sadly yes, because big businesses with insufficient concern for maintaining openness on the internet keep choosing siloed proprietary communication services, just because they're "more polished". cough Mozilla cough Slack cough
tamrix 7y ago
These are all advantages to me.
ori_b 7y ago
I admit, I never used zulip -- I don't like using chat from the browser, so I generally stick to things that I can connect to from chat clients. - What does it replace channels with? - How does it keep my github account separate from the identity I'm using in chat? - How does it avoid etiquette in channels? - Does it let me ignore or mute annoying people? - Is it possible to easily archive communication for posterity?
- dsr_ 7y ago
  Zulip uses three classes of communication: Streams which are like IRC channels; each stream has named threads (users are encouraged to reuse or start new ones as appropriate); and private messages can be 1:1 or multiparty. Zulip doesn't do anything with github other than the regex-based integration -- you can create links more easily, that's it. Nothing avoids etiquette or enforces etiquette except people. Muting can be applied to people or named threads. Zulip defaults to full archiving of everything, and making it searchable as well.
  - ori_b 7y ago
    > Nothing avoids etiquette or enforces etiquette except people. So why is it listed as an IRC specific problem? > Zulip defaults to full archiving of everything, and making it searchable as well. I have IRC logs from dead networks dating from over 15 years ago, and I still sometimes look things up in them. I don't want to trust Zulip to survive 15 years.
    - tabbott 7y ago
      > I don't want to trust Zulip to survive 15 years. You don't need to, we have an official tool that generates an HTML archive: https://github.com/zulip/zulip_archive https://github.com/zulip/zulip_archive. We recently adopted it from the great folks at the Lean Prover community, but we have plans to make it a lot nicer over the next couple months. That said, one of Zulip's central technical design principles is to invest in making a codebase that is easy to understand, well-documented, and readable, with the goal of ensuring Zulip is able to thrive for the next 15 years and beyond. I've been meaning to write a series of blog posts on the topic, but check out the 150K words of mostly Zulip developer-facing documentation on our ReadTheDocs: https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview/readme.html https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview/readme.html
movedx 7y ago
> hmm, I have to download a client? maybe I can access a web interface? irccloud.com > okay, I have this connection string/url No? What clients are you using that don't have an exhaustive network list in them? > how do I join a channel? The same way you do in Slack and other alternatives: you look at the channel list > how do I set my nickname? ... A good client, such as IRC Cloud, makes setting your nick name easy. Don't be lazy. Learn to use tools. > ... is this persistent? Yes, if you register it, and it's easier to register an IRC nickname than it is an account on virtually every other platform - no email/verification required. > oh someone else is using my name? is this for the channel or the server?? lol? > what's the etiquette of this particular channel? That's an actual, serious reason you're put off from IRC?
- radus 7y ago
  Based on my infrequent use of IRC, I am not interested in investing in learning the tools - which by the way change quite a bit over a few decades. On the other hand, the same usage pattern with other chat apps such as Zulip/Slack/Mattermost and others requires no specialized knowledge. irccloud.com looks great, except for the fact that you have to pay if you don't want to be kicked off after 2 hours of inactivity.
  - movedx 7y ago
    > irccloud.com looks great, except for the fact that you have to pay Yes, people need to eat. Sorry about that.
iamnotacrook 7y ago
"I have a question and there are a few people about so I'll ask it....(10 mins later)... ok no-one's answered... no-one's said anything, in fact. I hope they can see me. Oh well, I'll just browse away from this tab/close the IRC client and just reconnect later on or tomorrow and see if there's an answer. I'll just reconnect and scroll back up and see all the history I missed. It'll be fine... (next day)...Uh...where's my history?"

by radus 7y ago

partialrecall 7y ago

Requiring a browser and requiring social media credentials are both misfeatures in my book. Browsers are excellent tools.. for spying on users. And for as benign as github in particular may seem, we shouldn't be replacing standard internet protocols with products that promote and further normalize the expectation that people have a social media account.

dpark 7y ago
> Requiring a browser You realize we’re talking about Mozilla, right? > requiring social media They’re explicitly choosing between social media platforms...
- partialrecall 7y ago
  My point is that any social media platform is not an acceptable IRC requirement, nor is requiring a social media account an acceptable requirement for any IRC requirement. And Mozilla, more than perhaps anybody else, should be aware that web browsers facilitate surveillance of users.
  - dpark 7y ago
    IRC is a social media platform. The fact that it predates Github by two decades doesn’t mean it’s not social media. I don’t know know what you’re actually opposed to. A blanket disapproval of “social media” isn’t particularly meaningful, so there’s nothing of substance in your complaint to respond to. I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. If a nation state or corporation can compromise your browser, they can realistically compromise your entire OS.
    - partialrecall 7y ago
      I think you know exactly what I'm referring to and are trying to drag the conversation into the weeds of vocabulary pedantry. I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. The facebooks, twitters, linkedins (same owner as github) etc of the world. You know that's what I'm talking about. Freenode is a far cry from facebook. >I have no idea why you think browsers are a tool to facilitate surveillance to a greater extent than dedicated clients. Because that's simply factually the case? IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. With an IRC client if any third party code execution occurs, it's due to an exploit in the client. On the other hand with web browsers, servers sending malicious scripts for the browser to run is par for the course. Typical modern web browsers (even Mozilla's own) are total disasters, particularly in their default configuration. Why the hell aren't they shipping with resist-fingerprinting turned on by default? Because it would mildly inconvenience some users, and despite all their good intentions and positive words, they still prioritize user perception of convenience over privacy.
      - dpark 7y ago
        > I am of course talking about internet companies who turn user data into an asset. Then say that instead of rambling about social media like a tinfoil hatter. It’s totally fine if you don’t want to support Facebook or Github or Twitter. This isn’t just about “social media”, though. > IRC networks do not give my IRC client proprietary tracking scripts to run. There’s so much here to unpack. If you choose to use a communication tool that adds tracking scripts to your browser, then you have chosen to use a tool that tracks you. If Slack, for example, is sending your browser tracking beacons, then the problem is Slack and not the browser. The same issue could apply to your IRC client if you chose poorly. The same can also be said of the IRC server you connect to. Indeed Mozilla is currently running their own IRC server and undoubtedly can track you if you choose to use their communication platform. Best I can tell, what you actually want is to have the ability to use any client divorced from the service, and also to avoid your login being tracked by any “social media” service. I can understand the latter even if I don’t particularly care about that myself. The former is essentially pining for the early days of the internet when browsers rendered only text, and essentially no one actually cared about them. Essentially any platform that reaches a high level of richness supports tracking you. Email has the exact same issue because it supports images from servers. And yeah you can fix it, but only by giving up the richness that users actually want.
ascorbic 7y ago
Considering the fact that they disqualified several options for not working with Mozilla IAM, I doubt they'll be requiring social media login.

TingPing 7y ago

Nothing prevents a nearly identical frontend to IRC.

Avamander 7y ago
Would love to see one.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

requiring a single commercial entity like github is a really bad idea. Sure it'll be fine for a few years but when github goes belly up or gets bought and the new CEO cuts all extraneous projects, then you're hosed.

soperj 7y ago
You realize they're owned by Microsoft yes?
- cocoa19 7y ago
  That's counting on Microsoft taking good care of GitHub and maintaining its goodwill. It might or might not be well managed in the years to come. Case in point, Skype. It was "the" tool to use for office communication. Hardly anyone I know uses Skype nowadays.
  - alexhutcheson 7y ago
    Skype is still pretty big in the enterprise chat space.
    - gregknicholson 7y ago
      Sadly yes, because big businesses with insufficient concern for maintaining openness on the internet keep choosing siloed proprietary communication services, just because they're "more polished". cough Mozilla cough Slack cough

tamrix 7y ago

These are all advantages to me.

ori_b 7y ago

I admit, I never used zulip -- I don't like using chat from the browser, so I generally stick to things that I can connect to from chat clients. - What does it replace channels with? - How does it keep my github account separate from the identity I'm using in chat? - How does it avoid etiquette in channels? - Does it let me ignore or mute annoying people? - Is it possible to easily archive communication for posterity?

dsr_ 7y ago
Zulip uses three classes of communication: Streams which are like IRC channels; each stream has named threads (users are encouraged to reuse or start new ones as appropriate); and private messages can be 1:1 or multiparty. Zulip doesn't do anything with github other than the regex-based integration -- you can create links more easily, that's it. Nothing avoids etiquette or enforces etiquette except people. Muting can be applied to people or named threads. Zulip defaults to full archiving of everything, and making it searchable as well.
- ori_b 7y ago
  > Nothing avoids etiquette or enforces etiquette except people. So why is it listed as an IRC specific problem? > Zulip defaults to full archiving of everything, and making it searchable as well. I have IRC logs from dead networks dating from over 15 years ago, and I still sometimes look things up in them. I don't want to trust Zulip to survive 15 years.
  - tabbott 7y ago
    > I don't want to trust Zulip to survive 15 years. You don't need to, we have an official tool that generates an HTML archive: https://github.com/zulip/zulip_archive https://github.com/zulip/zulip_archive. We recently adopted it from the great folks at the Lean Prover community, but we have plans to make it a lot nicer over the next couple months. That said, one of Zulip's central technical design principles is to invest in making a codebase that is easy to understand, well-documented, and readable, with the goal of ensuring Zulip is able to thrive for the next 15 years and beyond. I've been meaning to write a series of blog posts on the topic, but check out the 150K words of mostly Zulip developer-facing documentation on our ReadTheDocs: https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview/readme.html https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview/readme.html

movedx 7y ago

> hmm, I have to download a client? maybe I can access a web interface? irccloud.com > okay, I have this connection string/url No? What clients are you using that don't have an exhaustive network list in them? > how do I join a channel? The same way you do in Slack and other alternatives: you look at the channel list > how do I set my nickname? ... A good client, such as IRC Cloud, makes setting your nick name easy. Don't be lazy. Learn to use tools. > ... is this persistent? Yes, if you register it, and it's easier to register an IRC nickname than it is an account on virtually every other platform - no email/verification required. > oh someone else is using my name? is this for the channel or the server?? lol? > what's the etiquette of this particular channel? That's an actual, serious reason you're put off from IRC?

radus 7y ago
Based on my infrequent use of IRC, I am not interested in investing in learning the tools - which by the way change quite a bit over a few decades. On the other hand, the same usage pattern with other chat apps such as Zulip/Slack/Mattermost and others requires no specialized knowledge. irccloud.com looks great, except for the fact that you have to pay if you don't want to be kicked off after 2 hours of inactivity.
- movedx 7y ago
  > irccloud.com looks great, except for the fact that you have to pay Yes, people need to eat. Sorry about that.

iamnotacrook 7y ago

"I have a question and there are a few people about so I'll ask it....(10 mins later)... ok no-one's answered... no-one's said anything, in fact. I hope they can see me. Oh well, I'll just browse away from this tab/close the IRC client and just reconnect later on or tomorrow and see if there's an answer. I'll just reconnect and scroll back up and see all the history I missed. It'll be fine... (next day)...Uh...where's my history?"