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I think there is more truth to their argument than people are giving them credit for. It seems like an in bad faith perspective to not give their claim some cr

by basch 7y ago

I think there is more truth to their argument than people are giving them credit for. It seems like an in bad faith perspective to not give their claim some credence. It makes YOUR argument stronger to first make the best version of Ubers argument before rebutting it. Does it make me a Microsoft employee if I use Outlook to conduct business? Does it make me an Ebay employee if I sell things through ebay? Until Uber eliminates the ability for drivers to drive Uber and Lyft simultaneously, and bounce between the services at will, I DO view it as drivers paying for 1) a dispatch and messaging service 2) payment processing 3) insurance 4) a resume host 5) a customer funnel. Thats more than just a technology or software company, Uber sells transportation services to drivers. The fact alone that they can have two messaging/dispatch apps open at once, on two phones, makes me question, which company do you think the driver works for? Both simultaneously? Just the one that the passenger is from? Is having both Uber and Lyft open looking for passengers any different than listing something I have for sale on Etsy, Ebay and Amazon, and pulling the listing once it sells out?

dzader 7y ago
> Does it make me a Microsoft employee if I use Outlook to conduct business? If Microsoft is the one paying you, and dictating how you use Outlook, what you can say, who you talk to you - then yes, it does.
- darkwizard42 7y ago
  Except Uber doesn't dictate how you use the app, they set parameters on how you can use it. They also don't tell you that you HAVE to take all rides, but if you do not meet a quality bar or are abusing their product then they can kick you off it / revoke your access... The only difference here is the payment. And to that end, if Outlook supported the ability to transfer money then it still wouldn't make Microsoft your employer...
  - dzader 7y ago
    > Except Uber doesn't dictate how you use the app, they set parameters on how you can use it. a distinction without a difference. if you don't follow their parameters they kick you off, which feels a lot like dictating how its used to me
eaurouge 7y ago
Ebay doesn't control how much you sell your product for. Ebay doesn't police how you sell, package, or ship your product. It's mostly hands off. Compare this with the level of control Uber exerts on its drivers. Similarly, Ebay's service is less dependent on how well you provide your commerce services, it pretty much lets the market determine your prospects on its platform. On the other hand, Uber is highly reliant on the conduct of its drivers and the service the provide.
- spookthesunset 7y ago
  Uber and lyft have to dictate the price the end user pays. Nobody would use the service if they had to collect bids from a bunch of drivers each time they wanted to go somewhere. As a result they wouldn’t have an effective pool of customers needed to attract drivers. I agree with others. These “gig economy” jobs are a different classification of worker that doesn’t currently exist. Dunno what the details should be but they aren’t quite contractors and they aren’t quite employees. California could have taken the lead and helped define this new classification...
  - IanCal 7y ago
    Whether they need to do it for their business to work isn't that relevant, they are still doing those things. In the UK we have two classifications that are different from self employed (contractors). We have worker and employee. They're similar but differ in the level of control the employer has and the responsibilities of the employer. The case in the UK decided that the drivers were workers but not employees. More info: https://www.gov.uk/employment-status https://www.gov.uk/employment-status
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    A corporation's illegal business practices don't become legal just because they're required to sustain its business model. I don't think your post makes a strong statement to this effect, but it suggests it, and it's good to be clear on this point.
    - 7y ago
jawns 7y ago
> The fact alone that they can have two messaging/dispatch apps open at once, on two phones, makes me question, which company do you think the driver works for? Both simultaneously? I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but I think many of us with full-time, salaried jobs tend to not be able to grasp that yes, you can be an employee of multiple companies simultaneously. You can't necessarily be paid by more than one employer for the same unit of time -- but that's not what's happening here. If a driver who is an employee of both platforms accepts a Lyft ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride. If they then accept an Uber ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride. Keep in mind there's no minimum amount of time you have to work to be considered working as an employee. Even if you're clocking in for just 5 minutes, you're still a working employee for those 5 minutes and should get paid for those 5 minutes. The only difference between this type of employment relationship and traditional employment relationships is that at least in theory, the drivers can set their own working hours. Although the degree to which Uber and Lyft exert influence over drivers' working hours makes me wonder just how freely chosen they are. But even if Uber, Lyft, and the like are able to argue that drivers can freely chose their working hours, that's NOT the only criterion necessary to be considered contractors. It is possible to be able to freely chose your own working hours yet still be classified properly as an employee, provided other factors point toward an employment relationship.
- basch 7y ago
  What if you accept a Lyft ride before youve completed your Uber ride? Im not even making the argument that they are employees or contractors, I am more saying that drivers are consumers of Ubers matching service, and that there is some accuracy in viewing Uber as a matchmaking service and payment facilitator.

by basch 7y ago

dzader 7y ago

> Does it make me a Microsoft employee if I use Outlook to conduct business? If Microsoft is the one paying you, and dictating how you use Outlook, what you can say, who you talk to you - then yes, it does.

darkwizard42 7y ago
Except Uber doesn't dictate how you use the app, they set parameters on how you can use it. They also don't tell you that you HAVE to take all rides, but if you do not meet a quality bar or are abusing their product then they can kick you off it / revoke your access... The only difference here is the payment. And to that end, if Outlook supported the ability to transfer money then it still wouldn't make Microsoft your employer...
- dzader 7y ago
  > Except Uber doesn't dictate how you use the app, they set parameters on how you can use it. a distinction without a difference. if you don't follow their parameters they kick you off, which feels a lot like dictating how its used to me

eaurouge 7y ago

Ebay doesn't control how much you sell your product for. Ebay doesn't police how you sell, package, or ship your product. It's mostly hands off. Compare this with the level of control Uber exerts on its drivers. Similarly, Ebay's service is less dependent on how well you provide your commerce services, it pretty much lets the market determine your prospects on its platform. On the other hand, Uber is highly reliant on the conduct of its drivers and the service the provide.

spookthesunset 7y ago
Uber and lyft have to dictate the price the end user pays. Nobody would use the service if they had to collect bids from a bunch of drivers each time they wanted to go somewhere. As a result they wouldn’t have an effective pool of customers needed to attract drivers. I agree with others. These “gig economy” jobs are a different classification of worker that doesn’t currently exist. Dunno what the details should be but they aren’t quite contractors and they aren’t quite employees. California could have taken the lead and helped define this new classification...
- IanCal 7y ago
  Whether they need to do it for their business to work isn't that relevant, they are still doing those things. In the UK we have two classifications that are different from self employed (contractors). We have worker and employee. They're similar but differ in the level of control the employer has and the responsibilities of the employer. The case in the UK decided that the drivers were workers but not employees. More info: https://www.gov.uk/employment-status https://www.gov.uk/employment-status
- caconym_ 7y ago
  A corporation's illegal business practices don't become legal just because they're required to sustain its business model. I don't think your post makes a strong statement to this effect, but it suggests it, and it's good to be clear on this point.
  - 7y ago

jawns 7y ago

> The fact alone that they can have two messaging/dispatch apps open at once, on two phones, makes me question, which company do you think the driver works for? Both simultaneously? I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but I think many of us with full-time, salaried jobs tend to not be able to grasp that yes, you can be an employee of multiple companies simultaneously. You can't necessarily be paid by more than one employer for the same unit of time -- but that's not what's happening here. If a driver who is an employee of both platforms accepts a Lyft ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride. If they then accept an Uber ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride. Keep in mind there's no minimum amount of time you have to work to be considered working as an employee. Even if you're clocking in for just 5 minutes, you're still a working employee for those 5 minutes and should get paid for those 5 minutes. The only difference between this type of employment relationship and traditional employment relationships is that at least in theory, the drivers can set their own working hours. Although the degree to which Uber and Lyft exert influence over drivers' working hours makes me wonder just how freely chosen they are. But even if Uber, Lyft, and the like are able to argue that drivers can freely chose their working hours, that's NOT the only criterion necessary to be considered contractors. It is possible to be able to freely chose your own working hours yet still be classified properly as an employee, provided other factors point toward an employment relationship.

basch 7y ago
What if you accept a Lyft ride before youve completed your Uber ride? Im not even making the argument that they are employees or contractors, I am more saying that drivers are consumers of Ubers matching service, and that there is some accuracy in viewing Uber as a matchmaking service and payment facilitator.