7 ms·

This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. Then you have vehicle dep

This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. Then you have vehicle depreciation and maintenance costs. You need to carry an insurance rider that covers rideshare driving. You also need to pay for your own health care. When you add up all these expenses, plus the desire for a living wage, there is no way drivers can be making enough with current rates. When people say you're essentially borrowing against the cost of the vehicle, I don't think they're being gratuitous. There may be low friction to entering the rideshare space by being a driver, but there are plenty of hidden costs.

stjohnswarts 7y ago
Everyone who I've personally known do these jobs only do it temporarily just to make ends meet between real jobs. It doesn't matter how shitty the benefits are if you're going to get kicked out on the street because you missed the rent/mortgage payment. Maybe some people do it "for a living" but I bet most are between real opportunities or making some money for Christmas/vacation/etc
- jshowa3 7y ago
  The reason they don't have a choice is because the system is designed to provide the lowest quality of living possible because we haven't done basic things like raised minimum wage with inflation or institute universal health care. Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. Something I don't even get the choice to do. It's about time we stop capitulating to desperation.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. which one is this?
    - jshowa3 7y ago
      Amazon
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        how do they get out of paying payroll tax?
        rockinghigh 7y ago
        They probably mean corporate income tax.
linuxftw 7y ago
People have to eat, nothing is free in the US. People generally do whatever their best option is. If the best option is below minimum wage, that's what they do. Why is that the best option? Zero-to-no tariffs and, consumer goods produced overseas by slave labor. No reason to hire domestic workers. Even McDonalds has touch-screen ordering now.
unksdfnaajhfjk 7y ago
> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Sometimes Compared to what? is the most important question. I've been driving for a few years. Before this I was making minimum wage with no benefits. Before that I had a difficult stretch of unemployment. One of my least favorite questions passengers ask me is What did you do before this? because I don't really like to talk about it. It is a rough job - you take a lot of risk, have a lot of bad days, and you get little reward in return. But at least it's work. Of course the bottom rungs of the ladder look terrible to people near the top, but for who have fallen off of it the bottom is the most important part. All of these "worker protections" define the bottom of the ladder as exploitation. Let me decide that, my labor is my own to sell for whatever price I can get somebody to pay for it.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  So, you'd rather drive without a guaranteed minimum wage, possibility for unemployment benefits, or health care benefits? I fail to see how that leaves the driver in a better position.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    It's the age-old minimum wage debate over again.
  - ethanwillis 7y ago
    The gig jobs are already not profitable without those things in place. With those in place the gig jobs will be destroyed. People already complain about high prices and those prices don't even cover the costs of trips unless you live in a dense city.
    - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
      Profitable to Uber, or to the driver? Uber gets a ~30% cut of what the rider pays (though it varies per ride).
      - 7y ago
rtkwe 7y ago
I mean those are all costs you should factor in but don't have to pay or are somewhat opaque (eg: depreciation). Drivers can go without health care and gamble on the insurance rider. Then the only paid costs are vehicle maintenance.
- lutorm 7y ago
  By "gamble on the insurance rider" you mean further externalize the cost that Uber already externalized onto the drivers? Because the people that end up paying when you "gamble on the insurance" are the people that you injure in an accident, or systemically through the need to carry "uninsured coverage" to cover yourself against those gamblers.
labrador 7y ago
I drive Lyft and Uber in the SF Bay Area. I'm a retired computer programmer and I need to supplement my income to have spending money. I'm on MediCal which is a great health insurance program and easy to get on if you are low income. I'm actually making really good money driving. When I am smart about knowing when and where to be I can make a too much money even working part time, by which I mean I will disqualify myself for MediCal. After all expenses including auto depreciation (I paid 6000 for a nice little transport car) I make a profit. Now I doubt Lyft or Uber would hire me because of my age. So it goes.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  What is the additional cost of having an insurance rider to cover when you're rideshare driving? I haven't pulled a quote, but I imagine that could be expensive due to increased liability.
  - aianus 7y ago
    I can only answer for Toronto, Canada but the answer was nothing. Uber has a deal with one of the insurance companies up here so you’re covered at no extra charge. (Intact / Belair Direct). Uber pays them directly for a big commercial contract to cover you when you’re driving for Uber. Edit: added "for Uber" on the last sentence
    - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
      My prior comment may be dated, or regionally-contextual. I assume then you have a personal policy, that covers when you are driving just you, and Uber's takes over when you have rideshare passengers. When I was looking for personal auto policies recently, I recall being asked (in the US) if you plan to do any rideshare driving.
      - aianus 7y ago
        Yes my personal auto policy explicitly covers Uber. I did need to inform them, but my premiums did not change. "ridesharing drivers operating on the Uber platform in Ontario can now be covered, at no extra cost. All you have to do is call us in order to update your personal auto policy." -- https://www.belairdirect.com/en/partnerships/uber.html https://www.belairdirect.com/en/partnerships/uber.html
RocketBilly 7y ago
Single data point checking in, ride share imo was a massive boon to people like me in the self employed lower middle class. Many of us already own cars and pay for our own health insurance. For people like me who make too much to qualify for state benefits but too little to 'climb the ladder' these sorts of jobs have been great because they fit easily into our schedules and the pace of the work is enjoyable to many of us. From my perspective, and I do realize this is relative, people wonder why the middle class is shrinking while failing to realize that a lot of these pro-worker laws are only good for certain types of workers. I'm not saying people poorer than me don't deserve help because I haven't been helped yet, but the issue is precisely that it seems (again, relative to my experience) that no one except the lowest income bracket actually attract political attention right now.
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
Many of the costs you list are invisible or avoidable if you don't care about consequences: Vehicle depreciation is invisible. Maintenance costs will hit later. If you haven't heard (or don't care) about the insurance thing, you just don't do it, so zero expense (until you're in an accident). Once you ignore these costs, and only do "income - fuel", Uber pays "really well". And you can do it at any time, as you wish! Little effort! Own boss! It's not surprising that Uber finds people to drive for them. Not everyone realizes the hidden costs. Although there are apparently some who seem to understand them, know how to play the optimization game, and (think that they) make enough that it's worth it. I have no way of checking, of course.
theflyinghorse 7y ago
> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. That's because those are the available jobs. I'm struggling to understand your question - obviously people will take whatever jobs are available to them so that they can support themselves. I doubt it's the CFA's or AI researches that take these jobs for the fun of it it's likely people who need them to survive.
notyourday 7y ago
> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. It must be nice to sit in air conditioned office on $800 chair, sipping kombucha, looking at 2x 28" 4k monitors pontificating "Why would anyone want to be driving for uber?" Because for an Uber driver this job could be the best available. One needs to eat and put a roof over one's head.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  I'm actually sitting on a wooden chair at a wobbly table in a space with no air conditioning, but that's beside the point. My original comment does have an air of privilege to it, and for that I apologize. It's my own frustration that we can't do better to people who's best option is something requiring the skill set of a job like rideshare driver. Stated in other (hopefully more fruitful) words, if you can work rideshare you can probably work at In N Out. They start at $13/hour and have none of the external costs of contract ridesharing. That could be more profitable to the worker, but I have not done the math.
  - notyourday 7y ago
    > They start at $13/hour and have none of the external costs of contract ridesharing. That could be more profitable to the worker, but I have not done the math. There are not enough In-and-Out burger places to accomodate all the Uber and Lyft drivers.
    - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
      It's a single example. Generalize the comment, and you'll take away that there are many employers of low-skilled labor.
      - notyourday 7y ago
        It's an example that does not appreciate with a concept of scale. There are very few employers of non-skilled labor that provide higher take home pay for the same or smaller number of hours worked than Uber. You should ask anyone who does unskilled labor if they would take a less paying job.
jimmaswell 7y ago
They are supposed to be side jobs to the main job you get benefits from.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  "Supposed to be" but the data shows most rideshare drivers drive full time.
d1zzy 7y ago
Last Uber drive that I talked to that did this on the side was in the area for some construction job that required him to be on site some days of the week, others didn't. In those days when they didn't call on him he did Uber for some money. The alternative was to not do anything and not get that money. There are definitely costs (hidden or not, really depends on how deep you are going to look for them) but I can also see how given the alternative of not doing anything they can still help. It's not like the Uber driver doesn't have to pay for insurance, registration and other fixed car costs (food, rent) anyway, whether they Uber or not.
wavepruner 7y ago
I can make very good money driving for Uber up to 25 hours per week in my city. This is after maintenance, gas, and depreciation costs. Lots of breweries here and people who like to have a good time and tip well. Rideshare insurance is an extra $10/month. Basically nothing. I have to pay for my own healthcare when I have a regular job too. Buying on the exchange is pretty much the same thing with more choice.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

Everyone who I've personally known do these jobs only do it temporarily just to make ends meet between real jobs. It doesn't matter how shitty the benefits are if you're going to get kicked out on the street because you missed the rent/mortgage payment. Maybe some people do it "for a living" but I bet most are between real opportunities or making some money for Christmas/vacation/etc

jshowa3 7y ago
The reason they don't have a choice is because the system is designed to provide the lowest quality of living possible because we haven't done basic things like raised minimum wage with inflation or institute universal health care. Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. Something I don't even get the choice to do. It's about time we stop capitulating to desperation.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. which one is this?
  - jshowa3 7y ago
    Amazon
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      how do they get out of paying payroll tax?
      - rockinghigh 7y ago
        They probably mean corporate income tax.

linuxftw 7y ago

People have to eat, nothing is free in the US. People generally do whatever their best option is. If the best option is below minimum wage, that's what they do. Why is that the best option? Zero-to-no tariffs and, consumer goods produced overseas by slave labor. No reason to hire domestic workers. Even McDonalds has touch-screen ordering now.

unksdfnaajhfjk 7y ago

> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Sometimes Compared to what? is the most important question. I've been driving for a few years. Before this I was making minimum wage with no benefits. Before that I had a difficult stretch of unemployment. One of my least favorite questions passengers ask me is What did you do before this? because I don't really like to talk about it. It is a rough job - you take a lot of risk, have a lot of bad days, and you get little reward in return. But at least it's work. Of course the bottom rungs of the ladder look terrible to people near the top, but for who have fallen off of it the bottom is the most important part. All of these "worker protections" define the bottom of the ladder as exploitation. Let me decide that, my labor is my own to sell for whatever price I can get somebody to pay for it.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
So, you'd rather drive without a guaranteed minimum wage, possibility for unemployment benefits, or health care benefits? I fail to see how that leaves the driver in a better position.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  It's the age-old minimum wage debate over again.
- ethanwillis 7y ago
  The gig jobs are already not profitable without those things in place. With those in place the gig jobs will be destroyed. People already complain about high prices and those prices don't even cover the costs of trips unless you live in a dense city.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    Profitable to Uber, or to the driver? Uber gets a ~30% cut of what the rider pays (though it varies per ride).
    - 7y ago

rtkwe 7y ago

I mean those are all costs you should factor in but don't have to pay or are somewhat opaque (eg: depreciation). Drivers can go without health care and gamble on the insurance rider. Then the only paid costs are vehicle maintenance.

lutorm 7y ago
By "gamble on the insurance rider" you mean further externalize the cost that Uber already externalized onto the drivers? Because the people that end up paying when you "gamble on the insurance" are the people that you injure in an accident, or systemically through the need to carry "uninsured coverage" to cover yourself against those gamblers.

labrador 7y ago

I drive Lyft and Uber in the SF Bay Area. I'm a retired computer programmer and I need to supplement my income to have spending money. I'm on MediCal which is a great health insurance program and easy to get on if you are low income. I'm actually making really good money driving. When I am smart about knowing when and where to be I can make a too much money even working part time, by which I mean I will disqualify myself for MediCal. After all expenses including auto depreciation (I paid 6000 for a nice little transport car) I make a profit. Now I doubt Lyft or Uber would hire me because of my age. So it goes.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
What is the additional cost of having an insurance rider to cover when you're rideshare driving? I haven't pulled a quote, but I imagine that could be expensive due to increased liability.
- aianus 7y ago
  I can only answer for Toronto, Canada but the answer was nothing. Uber has a deal with one of the insurance companies up here so you’re covered at no extra charge. (Intact / Belair Direct). Uber pays them directly for a big commercial contract to cover you when you’re driving for Uber. Edit: added "for Uber" on the last sentence
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    My prior comment may be dated, or regionally-contextual. I assume then you have a personal policy, that covers when you are driving just you, and Uber's takes over when you have rideshare passengers. When I was looking for personal auto policies recently, I recall being asked (in the US) if you plan to do any rideshare driving.
    - aianus 7y ago
      Yes my personal auto policy explicitly covers Uber. I did need to inform them, but my premiums did not change. "ridesharing drivers operating on the Uber platform in Ontario can now be covered, at no extra cost. All you have to do is call us in order to update your personal auto policy." -- https://www.belairdirect.com/en/partnerships/uber.html https://www.belairdirect.com/en/partnerships/uber.html

RocketBilly 7y ago

Single data point checking in, ride share imo was a massive boon to people like me in the self employed lower middle class. Many of us already own cars and pay for our own health insurance. For people like me who make too much to qualify for state benefits but too little to 'climb the ladder' these sorts of jobs have been great because they fit easily into our schedules and the pace of the work is enjoyable to many of us. From my perspective, and I do realize this is relative, people wonder why the middle class is shrinking while failing to realize that a lot of these pro-worker laws are only good for certain types of workers. I'm not saying people poorer than me don't deserve help because I haven't been helped yet, but the issue is precisely that it seems (again, relative to my experience) that no one except the lowest income bracket actually attract political attention right now.

tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago

Many of the costs you list are invisible or avoidable if you don't care about consequences: Vehicle depreciation is invisible. Maintenance costs will hit later. If you haven't heard (or don't care) about the insurance thing, you just don't do it, so zero expense (until you're in an accident). Once you ignore these costs, and only do "income - fuel", Uber pays "really well". And you can do it at any time, as you wish! Little effort! Own boss! It's not surprising that Uber finds people to drive for them. Not everyone realizes the hidden costs. Although there are apparently some who seem to understand them, know how to play the optimization game, and (think that they) make enough that it's worth it. I have no way of checking, of course.

theflyinghorse 7y ago

> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. That's because those are the available jobs. I'm struggling to understand your question - obviously people will take whatever jobs are available to them so that they can support themselves. I doubt it's the CFA's or AI researches that take these jobs for the fun of it it's likely people who need them to survive.

notyourday 7y ago

> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. It must be nice to sit in air conditioned office on $800 chair, sipping kombucha, looking at 2x 28" 4k monitors pontificating "Why would anyone want to be driving for uber?" Because for an Uber driver this job could be the best available. One needs to eat and put a roof over one's head.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
I'm actually sitting on a wooden chair at a wobbly table in a space with no air conditioning, but that's beside the point. My original comment does have an air of privilege to it, and for that I apologize. It's my own frustration that we can't do better to people who's best option is something requiring the skill set of a job like rideshare driver. Stated in other (hopefully more fruitful) words, if you can work rideshare you can probably work at In N Out. They start at $13/hour and have none of the external costs of contract ridesharing. That could be more profitable to the worker, but I have not done the math.
- notyourday 7y ago
  > They start at $13/hour and have none of the external costs of contract ridesharing. That could be more profitable to the worker, but I have not done the math. There are not enough In-and-Out burger places to accomodate all the Uber and Lyft drivers.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    It's a single example. Generalize the comment, and you'll take away that there are many employers of low-skilled labor.
    - notyourday 7y ago
      It's an example that does not appreciate with a concept of scale. There are very few employers of non-skilled labor that provide higher take home pay for the same or smaller number of hours worked than Uber. You should ask anyone who does unskilled labor if they would take a less paying job.

jimmaswell 7y ago

They are supposed to be side jobs to the main job you get benefits from.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
"Supposed to be" but the data shows most rideshare drivers drive full time.

d1zzy 7y ago

Last Uber drive that I talked to that did this on the side was in the area for some construction job that required him to be on site some days of the week, others didn't. In those days when they didn't call on him he did Uber for some money. The alternative was to not do anything and not get that money. There are definitely costs (hidden or not, really depends on how deep you are going to look for them) but I can also see how given the alternative of not doing anything they can still help. It's not like the Uber driver doesn't have to pay for insurance, registration and other fixed car costs (food, rent) anyway, whether they Uber or not.

wavepruner 7y ago

I can make very good money driving for Uber up to 25 hours per week in my city. This is after maintenance, gas, and depreciation costs. Lots of breweries here and people who like to have a good time and tip well. Rideshare insurance is an extra $10/month. Basically nothing. I have to pay for my own healthcare when I have a regular job too. Buying on the exchange is pretty much the same thing with more choice.