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To the contrary, I think the fact that you think both Snowden and Assange are Russian agents demonstrates that the administrations response was actually quite e

by MiroF 7y ago

To the contrary, I think the fact that you think both Snowden and Assange are Russian agents demonstrates that the administrations response was actually quite effective.

baron_harkonnen 7y ago
I was going to say exactly this. It's amazing how many Americans honestly think it's clear that Snowden is a "bad guy" because he's close to the Russians. Likewise Assange was pushed into a position that made him very unlikable to the US center-left (he could have probably played his hand a bit better). So mainstream American's are distrustful of both and pretty much everyone hates Assange.
- wannabcodr 7y ago
  If you examine what Ed Snowden leaked, it’s clear he was trying to do significant damage to the NSA. Much or most of what he stole and was leaked was unrelated to domestic surveillance. Much of it revealed our overseas activity. It’s difficult to see how any of it was to the benefit of Western interests.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    He wasn't "just trying to damage the NSA", he was trying to get the truth out about surveillance, the fact that the NSA was damaged was tangential and they shouldn't have been spying on US citizens. The NSA and other gov police entities were basically breaking half the dictates and the entire spirit of the US Constitution.
    - slg 7y ago
      What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? I was a big fan of Snowden until he started doing that. That isn't whistleblowing against Constitutional violations and seemed to indicate a shift in his objectives. It now appears that he is just against US spying at large, which is a perfectly acceptable political opinion to have, but it doesn't justify whistleblowing in a lot of people's minds.
      - stale2002 7y ago
        > What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? Because many of the spying actions were against Americans. Did you not read the leaks?
        slg 7y ago
        Sure, I read them. Many of them were about operations against US citizens. However, not all of them were. Here[1] is one example that comes to mind. That story in this leak is interesting, newsworthy, had serious repercussions, and was potentially unethical for the US government to do. However it is also exactly the type of thing everyone expects the NSA to be doing and it doesn't involve the spying on any Americans. This is the type of leak that will ensure that Snowden isn't embraced by the US government. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/snowden-nsa-syria-internet-outage-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/snowden-nsa-sy...
        stale2002 7y ago
        > However, not all of them were. Ok, but many were. Therefore it is a problem. And spying on Americans is something that many people have a problem with.
      - abugheratwork 7y ago
        > What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign [human beings]? Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights. If he leaked documents about operations against Americans, and then also about operations against foreigners, in my mind he did the same thing twice. If there was another difference, like spilling the location or identity of a person likely to be at risk, please spell that out. I have yet to see an example.
        slg 7y ago
        >Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights. That is what I am talking about as a "perfectly acceptable political opinion", but it is not an opinion that is based off any laws. Almost no mainstream political figure would share that opinion and therefore if that is the basis of Snowden's arguments, it isn't a wonder why he was treated harshly by the mainstream political system. Foreign spying is an accepted aspect of modern life. I totally understand if you think that spying in unethical. But Snowden would have been received much more favorable if he simply focused on the domestic spying operations which are largely unpopular rather than also revealing the foreign operations which are mostly accepted as necessary by the general population.
    - fouric 7y ago
      Your words do nothing to counter the argument of the comment you were replying to. The fact that the vast majority of the documents leaked were completely unrelated to domestic surveillance is as strong an indicator as we can get that he was specifically trying to damage the NSA, and any claims otherwise are PR.
      - smhost 7y ago
        drone strikes on people based on heuristics over metadata was the kind of logic that was operating at the highest levels of the intelligence apperatus, and not even congresspeople assigned to intel committees were aware of it. people should know about the kind of insane stupidity that they get up to overseas that make the country less safe. or what, do you really think that that kind of stuff is what's keeping the terrorists from doing another 9/11?
        fouric 7y ago
        This is a strawman, and isn't relevant to my argument at all. GP of my original comment never made the claim that the NSA/US weren't doing bad stuff (outside of domestic surveillance), only that Snowden was trying to damage them.
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  I love that Trump's DoJ hounding Assange into British custody and unsealing a huge indictment against him has done nothing to shake many Democrats' faith that Assange is some kind of Trump/Putin stooge.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  There are lots of us who aren't though. The Russians gave him safe haven and I'm guessing it was the only big country at the time that would do so and challenge US hegemony. As much as I hate them for hacking and influencing our elections I recognize Snowden's decision made logical sense. Any smaller country would have rolled over and turned him over to the US.
  - altendo 7y ago
    In fairness to Snowden, he didn't intend to stay in Russia; his fate was sealed when the US revoked his passport.[1][2] I can't imagine Snowden being much of a fan of Russia given a) what he probably knew during his time working at the NSA and b) actually living there. EDIT: formatting [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23318475 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23318475 [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-passport/u-s-revokes-snowdens-passport-official-source-idUSBRE95M0CW20130623 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-passport/u-s...
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  Clapper and Brennan (the ones who were in charge and bungled the Snowden and Assange cases) being hired on by major networks as pundits is apparently enough to shift the narrative.
option 7y ago
this. the public in US is so easily brainwashed it is actually very scary. Having lived in an oppressive state USSR and now in USA I find too many alarming similarities :(
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
roywiggins 7y ago
Calling him an "agent" is silly, but Snowden is living in Moscow at the pleasure of the Russian regime. It's hard to believe he's entirely free, or even substantially free, to do what he wants. It's pretty clear he never wanted to end up there. The US definitely screwed up by leaving him few other options. He's not an agent of Moscow, but he's not a free man either.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  This right here is what I believe. He isn't there out of choice, he is there out of a lack of options.
- slim 7y ago
  He's probably as free as he could be. Certainly more free than in US. Russia is scoring against US by simply letting Snowden live free. Then even if it will be hard for you to believe, some countries grant asylum to asylum seekers, simply to comply with international treaties
- MiroF 7y ago
  I think Russia has a lot to gain by letting him live freely

by MiroF 7y ago

To the contrary, I think the fact that you think both Snowden and Assange are Russian agents demonstrates that the administrations response was actually quite effective.

baron_harkonnen 7y ago

I was going to say exactly this. It's amazing how many Americans honestly think it's clear that Snowden is a "bad guy" because he's close to the Russians. Likewise Assange was pushed into a position that made him very unlikable to the US center-left (he could have probably played his hand a bit better). So mainstream American's are distrustful of both and pretty much everyone hates Assange.

wannabcodr 7y ago
If you examine what Ed Snowden leaked, it’s clear he was trying to do significant damage to the NSA. Much or most of what he stole and was leaked was unrelated to domestic surveillance. Much of it revealed our overseas activity. It’s difficult to see how any of it was to the benefit of Western interests.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  He wasn't "just trying to damage the NSA", he was trying to get the truth out about surveillance, the fact that the NSA was damaged was tangential and they shouldn't have been spying on US citizens. The NSA and other gov police entities were basically breaking half the dictates and the entire spirit of the US Constitution.
  - slg 7y ago
    What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? I was a big fan of Snowden until he started doing that. That isn't whistleblowing against Constitutional violations and seemed to indicate a shift in his objectives. It now appears that he is just against US spying at large, which is a perfectly acceptable political opinion to have, but it doesn't justify whistleblowing in a lot of people's minds.
    - stale2002 7y ago
      > What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? Because many of the spying actions were against Americans. Did you not read the leaks?
      - slg 7y ago
        Sure, I read them. Many of them were about operations against US citizens. However, not all of them were. Here[1] is one example that comes to mind. That story in this leak is interesting, newsworthy, had serious repercussions, and was potentially unethical for the US government to do. However it is also exactly the type of thing everyone expects the NSA to be doing and it doesn't involve the spying on any Americans. This is the type of leak that will ensure that Snowden isn't embraced by the US government. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/snowden-nsa-syria-internet-outage-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/snowden-nsa-sy...
        stale2002 7y ago
        > However, not all of them were. Ok, but many were. Therefore it is a problem. And spying on Americans is something that many people have a problem with.
    - abugheratwork 7y ago
      > What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign [human beings]? Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights. If he leaked documents about operations against Americans, and then also about operations against foreigners, in my mind he did the same thing twice. If there was another difference, like spilling the location or identity of a person likely to be at risk, please spell that out. I have yet to see an example.
      - slg 7y ago
        >Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights. That is what I am talking about as a "perfectly acceptable political opinion", but it is not an opinion that is based off any laws. Almost no mainstream political figure would share that opinion and therefore if that is the basis of Snowden's arguments, it isn't a wonder why he was treated harshly by the mainstream political system. Foreign spying is an accepted aspect of modern life. I totally understand if you think that spying in unethical. But Snowden would have been received much more favorable if he simply focused on the domestic spying operations which are largely unpopular rather than also revealing the foreign operations which are mostly accepted as necessary by the general population.
  - fouric 7y ago
    Your words do nothing to counter the argument of the comment you were replying to. The fact that the vast majority of the documents leaked were completely unrelated to domestic surveillance is as strong an indicator as we can get that he was specifically trying to damage the NSA, and any claims otherwise are PR.
    - smhost 7y ago
      drone strikes on people based on heuristics over metadata was the kind of logic that was operating at the highest levels of the intelligence apperatus, and not even congresspeople assigned to intel committees were aware of it. people should know about the kind of insane stupidity that they get up to overseas that make the country less safe. or what, do you really think that that kind of stuff is what's keeping the terrorists from doing another 9/11?
      - fouric 7y ago
        This is a strawman, and isn't relevant to my argument at all. GP of my original comment never made the claim that the NSA/US weren't doing bad stuff (outside of domestic surveillance), only that Snowden was trying to damage them.
AndrewBissell 7y ago
I love that Trump's DoJ hounding Assange into British custody and unsealing a huge indictment against him has done nothing to shake many Democrats' faith that Assange is some kind of Trump/Putin stooge.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
stjohnswarts 7y ago
There are lots of us who aren't though. The Russians gave him safe haven and I'm guessing it was the only big country at the time that would do so and challenge US hegemony. As much as I hate them for hacking and influencing our elections I recognize Snowden's decision made logical sense. Any smaller country would have rolled over and turned him over to the US.
- altendo 7y ago
  In fairness to Snowden, he didn't intend to stay in Russia; his fate was sealed when the US revoked his passport.[1][2] I can't imagine Snowden being much of a fan of Russia given a) what he probably knew during his time working at the NSA and b) actually living there. EDIT: formatting [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23318475 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23318475 [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-passport/u-s-revokes-snowdens-passport-official-source-idUSBRE95M0CW20130623 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-passport/u-s...
drak0n1c 7y ago
Clapper and Brennan (the ones who were in charge and bungled the Snowden and Assange cases) being hired on by major networks as pundits is apparently enough to shift the narrative.

option 7y ago

this. the public in US is so easily brainwashed it is actually very scary. Having lived in an oppressive state USSR and now in USA I find too many alarming similarities :(

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

roywiggins 7y ago

Calling him an "agent" is silly, but Snowden is living in Moscow at the pleasure of the Russian regime. It's hard to believe he's entirely free, or even substantially free, to do what he wants. It's pretty clear he never wanted to end up there. The US definitely screwed up by leaving him few other options. He's not an agent of Moscow, but he's not a free man either.

giancarlostoro 7y ago
This right here is what I believe. He isn't there out of choice, he is there out of a lack of options.
slim 7y ago
He's probably as free as he could be. Certainly more free than in US. Russia is scoring against US by simply letting Snowden live free. Then even if it will be hard for you to believe, some countries grant asylum to asylum seekers, simply to comply with international treaties
MiroF 7y ago
I think Russia has a lot to gain by letting him live freely