4 ms·

You are kidding right? The whole cold war?

WhompingWindows 7y ago
Unfounded claims, calling someone incredibly uninformed and ignorant, with zero evidence to back up these admonitions, shouldn't be posted here. If you have a claim to post, back it up with some kind of evidence or data. No one should have to be called "kidding" when they call out a lack of any kind of data.
- jonnybgood 7y ago
  The person you’re responding to didn’t call anyone anything. Be sure to check usernames.
kerkeslager 7y ago
During the Cold War, the US government did a lot of things which were extraordinarily harmful to US Citizens and contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism. Soviet totalitarianism was certainly a threat, but US repsonses to Soviet totalitarianism were often counterproductive. There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. Simply trotting out old tired Russophobia doesn't prove that pervasive surveillance has been good for the American people, it just shows your own bias. You're turning a blind eye to the wrongs done by the US government, some of them much worse than pervasive surveillance.
- dahdum 7y ago
  > There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contacts), it's not their focus. I can think of a couple, but they seem relatively limited? a) Surveillance revealing domestic crimes that were prosecuted through parallel construction. b) American businesses benefiting from NSA intelligence gathering, through politicians passing along information.
  - CWuestefeld 7y ago
    While it happened after the end of the USSR, we know that the NSA contrived to get a crypto system they knew to be weak standardized. And that weakness was later leveraged by hackers in at least one case.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? The GP did not say "NSA", but "US government". See for example: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Correct, this is what I meant.
      - dahdum 7y ago
        The whole thread was about the NSA's budget and mission, so I misunderstood your point. It appears you have no specific qualms with the NSA other than the fact they exist under the same government as the FBI/CIA?
        kerkeslager 7y ago
        No, I'm just shooting down the idea that simply saying the NSA was involved in fighting the cold war doesn't mean they're positive for US Citizens. I haven't mentioned my qualms about the NSA up to this point, but since you asked: I object to spending $10.8 billion in 2013[1]. I object to the fact that they have so little oversight, the public had to find out what their funding is from a leak[1]. I object to the fact that this spending resulted in only 4 arrests they will tell us about over a period of years[2] which are all fairly questionable[3]. I object to their continued violation of the constitutional right to privacy of almost every American.[4] I object to them undermining encryption standards[5] which weakens the security of people and companies everywhere. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/leaked-document-outlines-us-spending-on-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/leaked-docume... [2] https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs-stopped-attack-1312309 https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20944055 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20944055 [4] https://www.eff.org/702-spying https://www.eff.org/702-spying [5] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nsa-nist-encryption-scandal/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nsa-nist-encrypti...
- Aunche 7y ago
  > contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism I wouldn't say nothing. At the very least, they made sure that Russia wasn't planning to fire any nukes at us.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I probably could have worded that better--it's ambiguous. What I meant is that a lot of the things which the US government did were harmful to US Citizens, and a lot of those same things that the government did, contributed nothing to the fight against Soviet totalitarianism. Many of the mkultra experiments are a good example: the US government drove a bunch of US citizens insane for projects which ultimately resulted in no useable weaponry. My point being: simply waving your hands and saying "the cold war!" isn't a valid defense of US government organizations.
SahAssar 7y ago
Ah, so the NSA was the reason the cold war ended as it did? Via what specific actions/events?

Unfounded claims, calling someone incredibly uninformed and ignorant, with zero evidence to back up these admonitions, shouldn't be posted here. If you have a claim to post, back it up with some kind of evidence or data. No one should have to be called "kidding" when they call out a lack of any kind of data.

jonnybgood 7y ago
The person you’re responding to didn’t call anyone anything. Be sure to check usernames.

kerkeslager 7y ago

During the Cold War, the US government did a lot of things which were extraordinarily harmful to US Citizens and contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism. Soviet totalitarianism was certainly a threat, but US repsonses to Soviet totalitarianism were often counterproductive. There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. Simply trotting out old tired Russophobia doesn't prove that pervasive surveillance has been good for the American people, it just shows your own bias. You're turning a blind eye to the wrongs done by the US government, some of them much worse than pervasive surveillance.

dahdum 7y ago
> There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contacts), it's not their focus. I can think of a couple, but they seem relatively limited? a) Surveillance revealing domestic crimes that were prosecuted through parallel construction. b) American businesses benefiting from NSA intelligence gathering, through politicians passing along information.
- CWuestefeld 7y ago
  While it happened after the end of the USSR, we know that the NSA contrived to get a crypto system they knew to be weak standardized. And that weakness was later leveraged by hackers in at least one case.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? The GP did not say "NSA", but "US government". See for example: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Correct, this is what I meant.
    - dahdum 7y ago
      The whole thread was about the NSA's budget and mission, so I misunderstood your point. It appears you have no specific qualms with the NSA other than the fact they exist under the same government as the FBI/CIA?
      - kerkeslager 7y ago
        No, I'm just shooting down the idea that simply saying the NSA was involved in fighting the cold war doesn't mean they're positive for US Citizens. I haven't mentioned my qualms about the NSA up to this point, but since you asked: I object to spending $10.8 billion in 2013[1]. I object to the fact that they have so little oversight, the public had to find out what their funding is from a leak[1]. I object to the fact that this spending resulted in only 4 arrests they will tell us about over a period of years[2] which are all fairly questionable[3]. I object to their continued violation of the constitutional right to privacy of almost every American.[4] I object to them undermining encryption standards[5] which weakens the security of people and companies everywhere. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/leaked-document-outlines-us-spending-on-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/leaked-docume... [2] https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs-stopped-attack-1312309 https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20944055 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20944055 [4] https://www.eff.org/702-spying https://www.eff.org/702-spying [5] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nsa-nist-encryption-scandal/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nsa-nist-encrypti...
Aunche 7y ago
> contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism I wouldn't say nothing. At the very least, they made sure that Russia wasn't planning to fire any nukes at us.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  I probably could have worded that better--it's ambiguous. What I meant is that a lot of the things which the US government did were harmful to US Citizens, and a lot of those same things that the government did, contributed nothing to the fight against Soviet totalitarianism. Many of the mkultra experiments are a good example: the US government drove a bunch of US citizens insane for projects which ultimately resulted in no useable weaponry. My point being: simply waving your hands and saying "the cold war!" isn't a valid defense of US government organizations.

SahAssar 7y ago

Ah, so the NSA was the reason the cold war ended as it did? Via what specific actions/events?