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I think the repairability of the Fairphone 3 is a huge step forward, but in the long run I want a phone that allows me to run an up-to-date OS for as long as I

I think the repairability of the Fairphone 3 is a huge step forward, but in the long run I want a phone that allows me to run an up-to-date OS for as long as I want. The Fairphone 3 will get updates for 5 years, that's not enough if you ask me.

ShteiLoups 7y ago
So you want indefinite software support? Technically achievable with open source, but even OSS projects come to an end.
- pessimizer 7y ago
  > OSS projects come to an end. Depends on the project. With necessary projects to operate still-used technology, I don't know that OSS projects actually end (without drop-in replacements) very often.
  - ShteiLoups 7y ago
    I come across tools, frameworks, plugins, etc. all the time that are no longer being supported by their devs
organsnyder 7y ago
Five years seems reasonable to me. The further out they get, the harder it gets for them to provide support—they're dependent on chipset vendors for up-to-date drivers. I'll be interested to see what options there will be at the five-year mark: I'd guess that there would be options for non-official firmware.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  If all I want from the phone is five years, any of the flagship phones will do fine. Certainly I know several people still rocking iPhone 6's from 2014. Still running the latest OS (though that stops this year with iOS 13).
bradfa 7y ago
Would it be reasonable to you to get something like 2 years of monthly security/software updates included in your purchase of a phone and then pay a nominal (like $25) yearly fee to continue getting only security updates beyond the first 2 years? If not, then how would you suggest funding the people who perform the software/security update process for your phone?
- robocat 7y ago
  Old Android versions do get some security updates. Android 4.4 still gets the latest version of Chrome (6 years later), and the Play Services is updated too. In comparison when an Apple device stops getting updates, you are stuck with an insecure Safari version, so the device becomes unsafe to use for browsing. Edit: Nokia phones are providing 2 years of version update (from release), followed by 3 years of security updates (and presumably browser updates for many years after that). Not bad for say the more expensive Nokia 7.2 at USD350. Disclaimer: I'm a Nokia 7+ owner (very happy with it too).
- jraph 7y ago
  Making people pay for security would be bad. A solution to this is having an upstream kernel (like mainline Linux) work on the phone, and having fairly standard hardware in the phone with in-kernel drivers and free / standard libraries instead of these shitty blobs we need on current phones, and crappy unmaintainable Linux forks. Android 9 works on my nine year old airis kira slimpad x86 tablet sold with Windows 7. It runs a standard Xubuntu though. And yes, the latest Ubuntu with latest security patches. I don't rely on the manufacturer. It just works with standard software. Have the OS builders and hardware device makers maintain each part for you. This is not the world we live in though. In our world, Qualcomm and Samsung make their messy Linux forks and don't seem to maintain their Shit on a Chip. The Librem 5 is promising on this matter though.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Making people pay for security isn't unusual. Windows XP is still supported by Microsoft... provided you're willing to pay extra for it.
mrweasel 7y ago
Five years seems great, for getting a new up-to-date OS, but I would start to expect security updates to be available for longer. That not only Fairphone, but all phone manufactures. Apple is pretty good about supporting older hardware, but I feel like we reached a point in the last few years where phones are powerful enough that upgrades cycles could be five years for an average consumer. So it should be expected that security fixes would be available for longer.
spookthesunset 7y ago
5 years is enough time for the underlying cell technology to have shifted somehow and carriers will eventually stop supporting devices that don’t work on their new networks. You probably can’t take a 10 or 15 year old cell phone and expect it to work on any carrier out there today. There is an upper bound to how long a phone will even worn on a network...
- pessimizer 7y ago
  Isn't that the point of modularity?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
  > You probably can’t take a 10 or 15 year old cell phone and expect it to work on any carrier out there today. I believe that the Nokia 3310, released 19 years ago, is still compatible with many networks nowadays (with somewhat degraded coverage). GSM turndowns: https://1ot.mobi/blog/2g-and-3g-networks-are-shutting-down-globally https://1ot.mobi/blog/2g-and-3g-networks-are-shutting-down-g...
mynameisvlad 7y ago
Most people replace their phones within 3 years. That's why phone contracts (and now HUPs and EIPs) generally are for 2-3 years. 5 years already is a long time in the cell phone space. To compare, 5 years ago the Nexus 6 was released, and had its EOL 3 years ago. The iPhone 6 did slightly better, with the last software release being 12.x which was released last year (and only just got superseded yesterday). Expecting more than 5 years of support is pretty ridiculous, given industry trends and just the evolution of phones and technology in general in the span of 5 years.
- javajosh 7y ago
  The whole raison d'etre of the Fairphone is to buck industry trends and the evolution of phones. So I don't think it makes sense to hold them to a standard they are explicitly rejecting. Why not have a phone for 10 or 20 years, especially if the tech plateaus? I think a fair and good revenue model would be a modest software subscription fee - something like $20-50/year feels right.
la_barba 7y ago
Agreed, I think there should be an option for paying for long term service/support. The 5years thing is purely due to lack of funding.
- freehunter 7y ago
  I'm surprised LineageOS gives their software away for free. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would be willing to pay to continue using their old phones.

ShteiLoups 7y ago

So you want indefinite software support? Technically achievable with open source, but even OSS projects come to an end.

pessimizer 7y ago
> OSS projects come to an end. Depends on the project. With necessary projects to operate still-used technology, I don't know that OSS projects actually end (without drop-in replacements) very often.
- ShteiLoups 7y ago
  I come across tools, frameworks, plugins, etc. all the time that are no longer being supported by their devs

organsnyder 7y ago

Five years seems reasonable to me. The further out they get, the harder it gets for them to provide support—they're dependent on chipset vendors for up-to-date drivers. I'll be interested to see what options there will be at the five-year mark: I'd guess that there would be options for non-official firmware.

rootusrootus 7y ago
If all I want from the phone is five years, any of the flagship phones will do fine. Certainly I know several people still rocking iPhone 6's from 2014. Still running the latest OS (though that stops this year with iOS 13).

bradfa 7y ago

Would it be reasonable to you to get something like 2 years of monthly security/software updates included in your purchase of a phone and then pay a nominal (like $25) yearly fee to continue getting only security updates beyond the first 2 years? If not, then how would you suggest funding the people who perform the software/security update process for your phone?

robocat 7y ago
Old Android versions do get some security updates. Android 4.4 still gets the latest version of Chrome (6 years later), and the Play Services is updated too. In comparison when an Apple device stops getting updates, you are stuck with an insecure Safari version, so the device becomes unsafe to use for browsing. Edit: Nokia phones are providing 2 years of version update (from release), followed by 3 years of security updates (and presumably browser updates for many years after that). Not bad for say the more expensive Nokia 7.2 at USD350. Disclaimer: I'm a Nokia 7+ owner (very happy with it too).
jraph 7y ago
Making people pay for security would be bad. A solution to this is having an upstream kernel (like mainline Linux) work on the phone, and having fairly standard hardware in the phone with in-kernel drivers and free / standard libraries instead of these shitty blobs we need on current phones, and crappy unmaintainable Linux forks. Android 9 works on my nine year old airis kira slimpad x86 tablet sold with Windows 7. It runs a standard Xubuntu though. And yes, the latest Ubuntu with latest security patches. I don't rely on the manufacturer. It just works with standard software. Have the OS builders and hardware device makers maintain each part for you. This is not the world we live in though. In our world, Qualcomm and Samsung make their messy Linux forks and don't seem to maintain their Shit on a Chip. The Librem 5 is promising on this matter though.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Making people pay for security isn't unusual. Windows XP is still supported by Microsoft... provided you're willing to pay extra for it.

mrweasel 7y ago

Five years seems great, for getting a new up-to-date OS, but I would start to expect security updates to be available for longer. That not only Fairphone, but all phone manufactures. Apple is pretty good about supporting older hardware, but I feel like we reached a point in the last few years where phones are powerful enough that upgrades cycles could be five years for an average consumer. So it should be expected that security fixes would be available for longer.

spookthesunset 7y ago

5 years is enough time for the underlying cell technology to have shifted somehow and carriers will eventually stop supporting devices that don’t work on their new networks. You probably can’t take a 10 or 15 year old cell phone and expect it to work on any carrier out there today. There is an upper bound to how long a phone will even worn on a network...

pessimizer 7y ago
Isn't that the point of modularity?
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
> You probably can’t take a 10 or 15 year old cell phone and expect it to work on any carrier out there today. I believe that the Nokia 3310, released 19 years ago, is still compatible with many networks nowadays (with somewhat degraded coverage). GSM turndowns: https://1ot.mobi/blog/2g-and-3g-networks-are-shutting-down-globally https://1ot.mobi/blog/2g-and-3g-networks-are-shutting-down-g...

mynameisvlad 7y ago

Most people replace their phones within 3 years. That's why phone contracts (and now HUPs and EIPs) generally are for 2-3 years. 5 years already is a long time in the cell phone space. To compare, 5 years ago the Nexus 6 was released, and had its EOL 3 years ago. The iPhone 6 did slightly better, with the last software release being 12.x which was released last year (and only just got superseded yesterday). Expecting more than 5 years of support is pretty ridiculous, given industry trends and just the evolution of phones and technology in general in the span of 5 years.

javajosh 7y ago
The whole raison d'etre of the Fairphone is to buck industry trends and the evolution of phones. So I don't think it makes sense to hold them to a standard they are explicitly rejecting. Why not have a phone for 10 or 20 years, especially if the tech plateaus? I think a fair and good revenue model would be a modest software subscription fee - something like $20-50/year feels right.

la_barba 7y ago

Agreed, I think there should be an option for paying for long term service/support. The 5years thing is purely due to lack of funding.

freehunter 7y ago
I'm surprised LineageOS gives their software away for free. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would be willing to pay to continue using their old phones.