4 ms·

Can you give up your american passport and then stop or do you have to do it for the rest of your life?

ummwhat 7y ago
It costs over a grand to quit the club known as "citizenship" you're going to want citizenship in wherever you reside first when you give up US citizenship (you could choose to be stateless, but that makes more problems than it solves). Doing this does not absolve you of existing debts in the eyes of the IRS. And finally, you'll be interviewed at the consulate and if your stated reason for giving up citizenship is "the overseas tax thing", you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again.
- mosselman 7y ago
  Did you actually mean 1.000.000 (a thousand grand) or did you mean 1000. > you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again. Do you have a source for this?
- Intermernet 7y ago
  Apparently, you can run for any government office in a foreign state and it immediately nullifies your US citizenship. I have only heard this as rumour, and I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into.
  - justforyou 7y ago
    >> I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into. Then why take the time to post it?
    - mlrtime 7y ago
      Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more.
      - dymk 7y ago
        Well you’re wrong so there’s that. You can’t give up your citizenship as a result of running for a foreign office.
        justforyou 7y ago
        >> Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more. Seems like an assumption about the value of other people's time vs. your own.
  - jonwachob91 7y ago
    You don't have to look that hard to find that this is not true. Boris Johnson (the UK Prime Minister) was a US citizen until sometime in 2016. His UK political office roles until then included serving as a MP (2000-2008), Mayor of London (2008 - 2016), and UK Foreign Secretary (2016 - the time he relinquished his US citizenship). Reports indicate that he gave up his US citizenship to avoid the IRS taxing him.
  - Keverw 7y ago
    I've heard of this too. This talks a bit more about it https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Loss-US-Nationality-Foreign-State.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... and also https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... that mentions more different ways. For some cases it sounds like only if you have the intention of giving up your citizenship, then you have to get a "Certificate of Loss of Nationality". But I'm not a expert in this area, but I can see where this idea is coming from. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above. The Department has adopted an administrative presumption that U.S. nationals intend to retain their U.S. citizenship when they naturalize as nationals of a foreign state, declare their allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government. Also: The presumption that a person intends to retain U.S. nationality is not applicable when the individual: 1. formally renounces U.S. nationality before a consular officer; 2. serves as an officer in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the United States; or 3. takes a policy level position in a foreign state Cases in categories 2 and 3 will be developed carefully by a U.S. consular officer to ascertain the individual's intent toward U.S. nationality. Kinda confusing, but sounds like if you were elected prime minister of Canada (which would be policy level), then there's the presumption you wanted to give up citizenship, while working as a employee for the Canadian government such as driving the snow plows would be ok but things are reviewed by case by case.
- mathieuh 7y ago
  You can choose to be stateless? I thought I've read in UK media that countries are not allowed to make a person stateless. This is in the context of ISIS fighters with dual-nationality, these people are having their British citizenship stripped. Caused a bit of a hoohah with the Canadians.
  - 317070 7y ago
    IIRC nationality is a human right (article 15) [0], so a state cannot strip you of your last nationality. But, it is only a right, so you can strip yourself of your last nationality and go stateless. [0] https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf
  - InvaderFizz 7y ago
    The US will not allow you to renounce without presenting yourself in a embassy in a foreign country and they can choose to not accept your renunciation. However, statelessness is a possibility. Here is a full rundown of the process: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizenship-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizensh...
yardie 7y ago
You can renounce citizenship. There is a large multithousands dollar "fee" to do so. And if they find out you did so to avoid paying taxes (ex. renouncing citizenship and then turn around to cash out some Bitcoin) they can still go after you for taxes. Most citizens never hit the threshold to actually pay except if you file from a known tax haven. Income up to $115k is untaxed and any other taxes you do pay are deductible.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  It costs about $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return, so a multi thousand $ lifetime exemption seems ballpark good price.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    > $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return That number seems pretty high unless you have very complicated income (in which case you likely have a lot of money too) Also worth mentioning is that Foreign Income is taxed differently, so while you technically still have to pay taxes, I believe for most people who work mostly in a foreign country don't have to pay very much.
    - davidw 7y ago
      > complicated Yes, like, say, having an accountant that can read and understand your taxes where you live in Italy and then use that information to file US taxes. And of course they'll need to understand the tax treaty between the two countries so you don't end up paying extra. Of course it's complicated and a huge pain in the ass! And that's with a relatively normal, stable, well-established country with a lot of US citizens living in it. I should add: $400 is also a bigger deal when you live somewhere and don't earn as much as a software developer in the US.
      - acollins1331 7y ago
        You do know you can file your own taxes for free (or very little $) online if you can read?
easytiger 7y ago
You have to give up your passport. Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) did it a couple of years ago.

It costs over a grand to quit the club known as "citizenship" you're going to want citizenship in wherever you reside first when you give up US citizenship (you could choose to be stateless, but that makes more problems than it solves). Doing this does not absolve you of existing debts in the eyes of the IRS. And finally, you'll be interviewed at the consulate and if your stated reason for giving up citizenship is "the overseas tax thing", you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again.

mosselman 7y ago
Did you actually mean 1.000.000 (a thousand grand) or did you mean 1000. > you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again. Do you have a source for this?
Intermernet 7y ago
Apparently, you can run for any government office in a foreign state and it immediately nullifies your US citizenship. I have only heard this as rumour, and I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into.
- justforyou 7y ago
  >> I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into. Then why take the time to post it?
  - mlrtime 7y ago
    Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more.
    - dymk 7y ago
      Well you’re wrong so there’s that. You can’t give up your citizenship as a result of running for a foreign office.
      - justforyou 7y ago
        >> Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more. Seems like an assumption about the value of other people's time vs. your own.
- jonwachob91 7y ago
  You don't have to look that hard to find that this is not true. Boris Johnson (the UK Prime Minister) was a US citizen until sometime in 2016. His UK political office roles until then included serving as a MP (2000-2008), Mayor of London (2008 - 2016), and UK Foreign Secretary (2016 - the time he relinquished his US citizenship). Reports indicate that he gave up his US citizenship to avoid the IRS taxing him.
- Keverw 7y ago
  I've heard of this too. This talks a bit more about it https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Loss-US-Nationality-Foreign-State.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... and also https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... that mentions more different ways. For some cases it sounds like only if you have the intention of giving up your citizenship, then you have to get a "Certificate of Loss of Nationality". But I'm not a expert in this area, but I can see where this idea is coming from. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above. The Department has adopted an administrative presumption that U.S. nationals intend to retain their U.S. citizenship when they naturalize as nationals of a foreign state, declare their allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government. Also: The presumption that a person intends to retain U.S. nationality is not applicable when the individual: 1. formally renounces U.S. nationality before a consular officer; 2. serves as an officer in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the United States; or 3. takes a policy level position in a foreign state Cases in categories 2 and 3 will be developed carefully by a U.S. consular officer to ascertain the individual's intent toward U.S. nationality. Kinda confusing, but sounds like if you were elected prime minister of Canada (which would be policy level), then there's the presumption you wanted to give up citizenship, while working as a employee for the Canadian government such as driving the snow plows would be ok but things are reviewed by case by case.
mathieuh 7y ago
You can choose to be stateless? I thought I've read in UK media that countries are not allowed to make a person stateless. This is in the context of ISIS fighters with dual-nationality, these people are having their British citizenship stripped. Caused a bit of a hoohah with the Canadians.
- 317070 7y ago
  IIRC nationality is a human right (article 15) [0], so a state cannot strip you of your last nationality. But, it is only a right, so you can strip yourself of your last nationality and go stateless. [0] https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf
- InvaderFizz 7y ago
  The US will not allow you to renounce without presenting yourself in a embassy in a foreign country and they can choose to not accept your renunciation. However, statelessness is a possibility. Here is a full rundown of the process: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizenship-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizensh...

yardie 7y ago

You can renounce citizenship. There is a large multithousands dollar "fee" to do so. And if they find out you did so to avoid paying taxes (ex. renouncing citizenship and then turn around to cash out some Bitcoin) they can still go after you for taxes. Most citizens never hit the threshold to actually pay except if you file from a known tax haven. Income up to $115k is untaxed and any other taxes you do pay are deductible.

lonelappde 7y ago
It costs about $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return, so a multi thousand $ lifetime exemption seems ballpark good price.
- penagwin 7y ago
  > $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return That number seems pretty high unless you have very complicated income (in which case you likely have a lot of money too) Also worth mentioning is that Foreign Income is taxed differently, so while you technically still have to pay taxes, I believe for most people who work mostly in a foreign country don't have to pay very much.
  - davidw 7y ago
    > complicated Yes, like, say, having an accountant that can read and understand your taxes where you live in Italy and then use that information to file US taxes. And of course they'll need to understand the tax treaty between the two countries so you don't end up paying extra. Of course it's complicated and a huge pain in the ass! And that's with a relatively normal, stable, well-established country with a lot of US citizens living in it. I should add: $400 is also a bigger deal when you live somewhere and don't earn as much as a software developer in the US.
    - acollins1331 7y ago
      You do know you can file your own taxes for free (or very little $) online if you can read?

easytiger 7y ago

You have to give up your passport. Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) did it a couple of years ago.