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<RANT>US expatriates are the only expats in the world that have to file annual taxes (and report foreign bank accounts). It's ridiculous for most of us (99% are

• mieseratte 7y ago
  > US expatriates are the only expats in the world that have to file annual taxes Did Eritrea cleanup their act?
• teddyuk 7y ago
  Can you give up your american passport and then stop or do you have to do it for the rest of your life?
  • ummwhat 7y ago
    It costs over a grand to quit the club known as "citizenship" you're going to want citizenship in wherever you reside first when you give up US citizenship (you could choose to be stateless, but that makes more problems than it solves). Doing this does not absolve you of existing debts in the eyes of the IRS. And finally, you'll be interviewed at the consulate and if your stated reason for giving up citizenship is "the overseas tax thing", you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again.
    • mosselman 7y ago
      Did you actually mean 1.000.000 (a thousand grand) or did you mean 1000. > you'll be denied a visa if you ever want to visit the US again. Do you have a source for this?
    • Intermernet 7y ago
      Apparently, you can run for any government office in a foreign state and it immediately nullifies your US citizenship. I have only heard this as rumour, and I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into.
      • justforyou 7y ago
        >> I don't have time to confirm / deny this, but it may be worth looking into. Then why take the time to post it?
        • mlrtime 7y ago
          Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more.
          • dymk 7y ago
            Well you’re wrong so there’s that. You can’t give up your citizenship as a result of running for a foreign office.
            • justforyou 7y ago
              >> Because it is a interesting avenue to investigate if someone wants to know more. Seems like an assumption about the value of other people's time vs. your own.
      • jonwachob91 7y ago
        You don't have to look that hard to find that this is not true. Boris Johnson (the UK Prime Minister) was a US citizen until sometime in 2016. His UK political office roles until then included serving as a MP (2000-2008), Mayor of London (2008 - 2016), and UK Foreign Secretary (2016 - the time he relinquished his US citizenship). Reports indicate that he gave up his US citizenship to avoid the IRS taxing him.
      • Keverw 7y ago
        I've heard of this too. This talks a bit more about it https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Loss-US-Nationality-Foreign-State.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... and also https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega... that mentions more different ways. For some cases it sounds like only if you have the intention of giving up your citizenship, then you have to get a "Certificate of Loss of Nationality". But I'm not a expert in this area, but I can see where this idea is coming from. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above. The Department has adopted an administrative presumption that U.S. nationals intend to retain their U.S. citizenship when they naturalize as nationals of a foreign state, declare their allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government. Also: The presumption that a person intends to retain U.S. nationality is not applicable when the individual: 1. formally renounces U.S. nationality before a consular officer; 2. serves as an officer in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the United States; or 3. takes a policy level position in a foreign state Cases in categories 2 and 3 will be developed carefully by a U.S. consular officer to ascertain the individual's intent toward U.S. nationality. Kinda confusing, but sounds like if you were elected prime minister of Canada (which would be policy level), then there's the presumption you wanted to give up citizenship, while working as a employee for the Canadian government such as driving the snow plows would be ok but things are reviewed by case by case.
    • mathieuh 7y ago
      You can choose to be stateless? I thought I've read in UK media that countries are not allowed to make a person stateless. This is in the context of ISIS fighters with dual-nationality, these people are having their British citizenship stripped. Caused a bit of a hoohah with the Canadians.
      • 317070 7y ago
        IIRC nationality is a human right (article 15) [0], so a state cannot strip you of your last nationality. But, it is only a right, so you can strip yourself of your last nationality and go stateless. [0] https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf
      • InvaderFizz 7y ago
        The US will not allow you to renounce without presenting yourself in a embassy in a foreign country and they can choose to not accept your renunciation. However, statelessness is a possibility. Here is a full rundown of the process: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizenship-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-renounce-us-citizensh...
  • yardie 7y ago
    You can renounce citizenship. There is a large multithousands dollar "fee" to do so. And if they find out you did so to avoid paying taxes (ex. renouncing citizenship and then turn around to cash out some Bitcoin) they can still go after you for taxes. Most citizens never hit the threshold to actually pay except if you file from a known tax haven. Income up to $115k is untaxed and any other taxes you do pay are deductible.
    • lonelappde 7y ago
      It costs about $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return, so a multi thousand $ lifetime exemption seems ballpark good price.
      • penagwin 7y ago
        > $400 per year in time and money to file a tax return That number seems pretty high unless you have very complicated income (in which case you likely have a lot of money too) Also worth mentioning is that Foreign Income is taxed differently, so while you technically still have to pay taxes, I believe for most people who work mostly in a foreign country don't have to pay very much.
        • davidw 7y ago
          > complicated Yes, like, say, having an accountant that can read and understand your taxes where you live in Italy and then use that information to file US taxes. And of course they'll need to understand the tax treaty between the two countries so you don't end up paying extra. Of course it's complicated and a huge pain in the ass! And that's with a relatively normal, stable, well-established country with a lot of US citizens living in it. I should add: $400 is also a bigger deal when you live somewhere and don't earn as much as a software developer in the US.
          • acollins1331 7y ago
            You do know you can file your own taxes for free (or very little $) online if you can read?
  • easytiger 7y ago
    You have to give up your passport. Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) did it a couple of years ago.
• wil421 7y ago
  Why does it matter? My brother in law lived in Costa Rica for 10+ years. He never had to pay a single bit of tax. I know a few people in Europe with higher salaries and they have never paid a cent either. I’ve yet to meet anyone who lived overseas and had to pay the IRS.
  • gwd 7y ago
    > He never had to pay a single bit of tax. I know a few people in Europe with higher salaries and they have never paid a cent either. He didn't say pay taxes; he said file taxes. Every year I have to tell the US government how much I made, and then explain why I don't owe them any money (i.e., already paid tax on it to the UK). It's a stressful hassle even if you don't end up owing anything.
    • wil421 7y ago
      I fully understand. I’m asking if you ever had to pay taxes? Plenty of people complain about filing paper work but I’ve never met anyone who owed anything.
      • frittig 7y ago
        I had to pay. I have lived abroad for several decades and when I decided to do some independent contracting I realized that now I have to pay social security. Also, while I generally pay more taxes than an American, every once in a while there is a tax break that I get that Americans don't. In that case I have to pay that amount to the US.
      • davidw 7y ago
        You end up paying quite a bit to owe 0, because it's not easy to find a competent accountant who can, say, understand your Italian tax returns, and then file in the US based on those.
      • gwd 7y ago
        I pay taxes to the US (and not to the country I live in) on the small amount of passive income generated in accounts located in the US. I'm not 100% sure if this is the Right Thing to do or not, but it seems fair. But my taxes would be a lot simpler and less stressful if I only had to report this income (and on years where this was 0, not report anything at all).
• microcolonel 7y ago
  Yeah, it is a bit annoying, and I can imagine it is beyond a bit annoying if you are making income somewhere that doesn't have a treaty with the U.S. I thankfully don't get double-taxed here in Canada, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to have a marginal tax rate greater than 100% between U.S. Federal income taxes and some other systems.
  • navigatesol 7y ago
    >I thankfully don't get double-taxed here in Canada I bet many of your fellow Canadian taxpayers (of which I am one) are not so thankful for this arrangement. Then again, I fall strictly in the "citizenship is a privilege, not a right" camp.
    • microcolonel 7y ago
      > I bet many of your fellow Canadian taxpayers (of which I am one) are not so thankful for this arrangement. Well, I pay absolutely all Canadian taxes to the full extent, and I can't make use of TFSAs; what do my fellow Canadians have any right to complain about? > Then again, I fall strictly in the "citizenship is a privilege, not a right" camp. Well, I am a citizen, and I've lived in Canada my whole life.
      • navigatesol 7y ago
        You claimed to be thankful for not being "double-taxed", from which I inferred you're a Canadian, living abroad, "thankfully" not contributing to the roads, schools and hospitals of this country from you which, once can assume, you hope to extract benefit from in the future. If you're a Canadian who lives in Canada and pays Canadian taxes, there's no controversy.
        • microcolonel 7y ago
          > You claimed to be thankful for not being "double-taxed", from which I inferred you're a Canadian It's not "double-taxed", it's double-taxed. The U.S. system in fact makes it possible for the same income to be taxed twice at the full rate. And you didn't need to infer that I'm Canadian, I said it right in my comment. I'm thankful I'm covered by the Canadian agreements, which allow me to credit my Canadian tax payments against (most of) my U.S. tax liability. I still have to file taxes in the U.S. like every other U.S. citizen, I still have to file FBARs with FinCEN like every U.S. citizen. I still have to pay Canadian taxes like everyone else who makes Canadian-source income, I still must pay the OHP like every Ontarian, I still must pay into CPP even though I may never be able to take it. Even if I didn't make Canadian-source income I would still be paying property taxes either directly or indirectly, paying sales taxes every time I bought something other than groceries, and that's where the roads and the schools get their money; though because of some combination of my personality and the quality of the schools I never did get more than primary school out of the system here before I left to work and began paying net taxes in my second year of full time employment. I don't know why you're being so hostile. If somehow this arrangement allowed me to not pay taxes lawfully, how would that be my fault? It would be all of ours. Frankly it's appalling that they manage to make things cost enough to justify these taxes, especially as every Canadian sees these obscene transfers of wealth from every taxpayer to Bombardier, the leniency extended to SNC Lavalin, the "equalization" process by which unproductive Canadians feast on productive ones for the privilege of living in equal comfort without ever considering moving for work; but I do pay them, you're welcome.
• rahimnathwani 7y ago
  That's not true. Several other countries require that their citizens file annual tax returns, and tax them on their worldwide income. Why is it ridiculous? And what makes you so sure that less than 1% of US citizens living outside the US evade tax?
  • typenil 7y ago
    The other countries that tax worldwide income: Libya, North Korea, Eritrea and the Philippines. Great company to be in. You could call it ridiculous because it’s so unusual. But the reason most countries don’t do it is that taxes are a supposed to be a deal - the government forces you to hand over money and pays for services you use in return. Expats - they aren’t using those services. And your point about tax evaders is moot - taxing global income only hurts law abiding expats, not evaders. Seems like you’re being hostile and skeptical for personal reasons.
    • wrkronmiller 7y ago
      Devils-advocate: The U.S. government still provides expats services such as the State Department, potentially U.S. government intervention to help evacuate citizens from troubled areas etc...
      • thelittleone 7y ago
        So does Australia whilst not taxing on worldwide income.
        • navigatesol 7y ago
          And in what way is that good for or fair to the citizens who contribute to the system that enables you to take advantage of these services?
        • davidw 7y ago
          And Canada, Italy, Germany, Norway, New Zealand, France, UK, etc... etc.... do as well without the silly system the US has in place.
• packet_nerd 7y ago
  Don't even get me started.... In many countries it's hard or near impossible for US citizens to get bank accounts and other financial services, I guess due to them not wanting to deal with reporting requirements? Europeans, Aussies, and pretty much everyone have it way easier. Makes me so mad.
  • buckminster 7y ago
    Ha. My ancient mother, who is English, was conducting some mundane transaction in an English bank the other day when the teller asked her "You're not American are you?". She was so surprised she didn't know what to say. AIUI, it's not just reporting requirements but the potential for massive fines that's driving this.
  • cynwoody 7y ago
    A few years ago, the IRS came after Boris Johnson, then the mayor of London, now the PM, for taxes on the gain from the sale of his house in London. He was born in NYC, you see, making him an American citizen. He ended up paying the tax and renouncing his US citizenship. https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/02/15/savvy-london-mayor-boris-johnson-paid-irs-is-now-renouncing-u-s-citizenship/#7948086b21c1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/02/15/savvy-lon...
• rendall 7y ago
  The astonishing thing is that foreign banks are compelled to report your banking activity to the IRS
• dang 7y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20939039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20939039 and marked it off-topic.