7 ms·

As an American living in Ontario, Canada for a time, I literally COULD NOT BELIEVE the gig economy there. It is what the US aspires to: a guy owns a snow plow b

As an American living in Ontario, Canada for a time, I literally COULD NOT BELIEVE the gig economy there. It is what the US aspires to: a guy owns a snow plow business, employs 30 other gig workers 6mos a year. A woman does city/house hunting tours. Contractors are consistently self-employed. On and on. These folks, earning enough to live, and (to another commentor’s point) without fear of medical bills/issues. That really is it: that’s the difference. And it makes all the difference.

jaaron 7y ago
I often wonder about this cost to the US economy due to a lack of universal health care: how much productivity is lost due to people staying in jobs just for health care, how many businesses not started, etc.
- dpau 7y ago
  Here in the US I'm personally forgoing health insurance to pursue my craft while developing software on the side for extra income. One medical emergency will end it all. I've often wondered myself if, in a country with universal healthcare, people would be more willing to take risks and start businesses, pursue their art, develop inventions, etc. Would love to see an analysis of the economic cost of not having universal healthcare in terms of startups not pursued, inventions not made, etc.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    >One medical emergency will end it all. One medical emergency and your credit will be ruined. Wait a seven years without contracting the debt collector and the debt becomes uncollectible. After three years roughly three quarters of the effect on your credit will evaporate. That's what actually happens beyond the hyperbolic political grandstanding. Remember kids, if you get a bill that you can't possibly pay. Don't pay it. Let it go to collections and pay it for pennies on the dollar (another trick, tell them the most you can pay is $10 a month or something else low. Pay off that debt in 2075) or just wait for it to become uncollectible.
    - badpun 7y ago
      Don't the debt collectors start with taking everything you own (money in bank, house, car etc.) first? And after that, they'll take most of your salary, leaving you only enough to physically survive. That's how it works in Poland, by law. The only available loophole is to work illegally till the end your life, so that the collectors can't get their hands on that money.
      - 14 7y ago
        It would totally depend on where you live. In Canada after 7 years the debt goes away on most debt. But you have to not pay it for 7 years. If you make one payment in that time it starts over. And they will try and beg you even to make a very small payment. Because it starts the clock again. Once you reach the 7 year mark the debt is wiped from your credit and can not be used against you. Source: Canadian, walked away from my student loan debt after injury, provincial loan was wiped clean federal loan had to be paid off. Student Visa wiped clean. To be clear I could not work and the bills kept getting harder and harder to pay. I was dying with stress and anxiety about bills. So I stopped paying them and bought food instead. I was young and not prepared for emergencies but it was clear I was sinking. I would like to also add this is NOT a great solution if you can avoid it. Responsible spending is. With the debt, for 7 years I could not get a credit card or take out a loan. If my car died I had to buy a new one right now out of pocket for work. It is not good. So though I had about 20000$ in provincial loans wiped it took me over a decade to pay off the rest of my debt. Today I am 100% debt free and even have a few dollars. The difference in stress levels I live day to day are huge I can not understate how much responsible spending with in your means can do for a person.
      - ovulator 7y ago
        That depends on who you owe the debt too, do you owe the debt to the IRS or another government agency? Yes, they can take your stuff and garnish your wages. Do you owe the debt to American Express? It depends on the state in the US, they can sue you, and try to garnish wages and take assets that way. But some states have laws against things like wage garnishing, it also costs money to sue some one. So if $costToSue > $expectedDebtRecovery they aren't going to sue. They usually just sell the debt to a collections agency who just calls you relentlessly trying to get you to pay, and since the collection agency bought the debt so cheap, they aren't going to throw more costs to collect the money by suing. If they can get any money out of you just by calling, it's a win for them.
- RonaldSchleifer 7y ago
  I doubt you are thinking of that “cost” properly … no one seems to accurately as far as I have been able to tell over several decades now. The whole debate over healthcare is dominated by one of two different mindsets; either based in utter ignorance and wishful thinking, or nefarious and malicious manipulation and conning. The people lauding the wonderful beautified “universal healthcare” (which, btw, they lied to you about never wanting to implement during pre-Obama care con job that made the Health sector rich and the middle class poorer) do t ever actually account all the costs when discussing it, and I will just assume you are doing the same from a point of ignorance, and not intentional deception. Here is a representative example of a wonderful splendrous worker with universal healthcare in Europe. 1), as surveys here too show, for the same job, you’ll be making about 50-75% the salary of an American equivalent (see following points). 2) Your tax burden on that immensely lower income will be approaching 30% effective income tax (FYI, e.g., the 42% tax rat starts applying at €55,000, just for a reference point … and no, that is not a typo) 3) on that lower income and higher taxes amount, you then get to pay huge retirement taxes too, on the order of effectively approaching 20%, with heart wrenching and soul sucking outcomes when you see the “pension” people are given after a life of paying into an utterly incompetent and failed retirement system. For reference, think of paying into a retirement system at going on 20% of your income and then getting about 1/4 of your salary to live off in “retirement”. It’s sad and sick and immoral. If people had been able to simply invest their own money in a global fund, they would probably be swimming in money in retirement, but instead they were pillaged and plundered in order to give them a pittance in “retirement”. It’s really a morally bankrupted and depraved system. 4) so now that we’ve reduced your already lower income by around 50% from taxes and a con job retirement system, let’s talk about the health care system cost that will run you about €300 per month in employee costs every month just for a single person, not counting the employer contribution of another ~€900; again, for a single individual. And on top of that, you are also going to have copays to see the doctor (albeit about 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost in the USA, so you get to save $5-15), but you also get to go to a doctor for a prescription and a pharmacy to buy things like basic over the counter medications like ibuprofen .… that comes in blister packs of 20 you get “for free”(see tax burden and health insurance costs above for reference of level of “freeness”). Again, no, those are not typos or errors, they are very much representative examples. 4) gasoline is taxed at 100%, in most European countries or more, with talk of increasing it. And no, again, that is not a typo. For reference, in the USA gasoline is taxed at around the 20-25% range. The reason I mention that, is because it’s not only a taxation on mobility, it again sucks the disposable income of the lower income people dry. And none of that even goes into the fact that medical care is determined by the insurance that pulls typical insurance things where when it’s time to pay out all the sudden the medical care is deemed not necessary. The saddest thing about the health care cost debate is that it seems to be driven by a con job to trick people into a trap that will enslave them to authoritarian control even more without any benefits from it, if not only more detrimental effects like Obamacare that only served to drive up costs and then peg them at new levels that made health insurance companies and the medical sector richer, while Medicare fraud and pull pushing has run amok. I actually find it curious that especially this community would not realize that the ideal system is not a centralized monolith running on a con job and no backups, but a highly competitive decentralized system forced to be transparent and accountable. But I guess whatever is driving the centralization of power and control among the tech tyrant FAANGs, seems to have also latched onto people’s minds here maybe. Please excuse any errors because English is not my first language
pkaye 7y ago
That is partially because they are skilled workers. The guys who mow lawns in my bay area neighborhood can command hefty rates too. Of course health insurance remains an issue.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Those snowplow workers will likely be employees, not contractors. The Canadian government really frowns on avoidance of payroll taxes. But due to Medicare etc, it's not that big of a deal whether a worker is a contractor or employee.
- aianus 7y ago
  The same payroll taxes are paid whether you’re self employed or employed. Including Uber drivers. You just pay both sides of the CPP and EI if you’re filing as self employed.

jaaron 7y ago

I often wonder about this cost to the US economy due to a lack of universal health care: how much productivity is lost due to people staying in jobs just for health care, how many businesses not started, etc.

dpau 7y ago
Here in the US I'm personally forgoing health insurance to pursue my craft while developing software on the side for extra income. One medical emergency will end it all. I've often wondered myself if, in a country with universal healthcare, people would be more willing to take risks and start businesses, pursue their art, develop inventions, etc. Would love to see an analysis of the economic cost of not having universal healthcare in terms of startups not pursued, inventions not made, etc.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  >One medical emergency will end it all. One medical emergency and your credit will be ruined. Wait a seven years without contracting the debt collector and the debt becomes uncollectible. After three years roughly three quarters of the effect on your credit will evaporate. That's what actually happens beyond the hyperbolic political grandstanding. Remember kids, if you get a bill that you can't possibly pay. Don't pay it. Let it go to collections and pay it for pennies on the dollar (another trick, tell them the most you can pay is $10 a month or something else low. Pay off that debt in 2075) or just wait for it to become uncollectible.
  - badpun 7y ago
    Don't the debt collectors start with taking everything you own (money in bank, house, car etc.) first? And after that, they'll take most of your salary, leaving you only enough to physically survive. That's how it works in Poland, by law. The only available loophole is to work illegally till the end your life, so that the collectors can't get their hands on that money.
    - 14 7y ago
      It would totally depend on where you live. In Canada after 7 years the debt goes away on most debt. But you have to not pay it for 7 years. If you make one payment in that time it starts over. And they will try and beg you even to make a very small payment. Because it starts the clock again. Once you reach the 7 year mark the debt is wiped from your credit and can not be used against you. Source: Canadian, walked away from my student loan debt after injury, provincial loan was wiped clean federal loan had to be paid off. Student Visa wiped clean. To be clear I could not work and the bills kept getting harder and harder to pay. I was dying with stress and anxiety about bills. So I stopped paying them and bought food instead. I was young and not prepared for emergencies but it was clear I was sinking. I would like to also add this is NOT a great solution if you can avoid it. Responsible spending is. With the debt, for 7 years I could not get a credit card or take out a loan. If my car died I had to buy a new one right now out of pocket for work. It is not good. So though I had about 20000$ in provincial loans wiped it took me over a decade to pay off the rest of my debt. Today I am 100% debt free and even have a few dollars. The difference in stress levels I live day to day are huge I can not understate how much responsible spending with in your means can do for a person.
    - ovulator 7y ago
      That depends on who you owe the debt too, do you owe the debt to the IRS or another government agency? Yes, they can take your stuff and garnish your wages. Do you owe the debt to American Express? It depends on the state in the US, they can sue you, and try to garnish wages and take assets that way. But some states have laws against things like wage garnishing, it also costs money to sue some one. So if $costToSue > $expectedDebtRecovery they aren't going to sue. They usually just sell the debt to a collections agency who just calls you relentlessly trying to get you to pay, and since the collection agency bought the debt so cheap, they aren't going to throw more costs to collect the money by suing. If they can get any money out of you just by calling, it's a win for them.
RonaldSchleifer 7y ago
I doubt you are thinking of that “cost” properly … no one seems to accurately as far as I have been able to tell over several decades now. The whole debate over healthcare is dominated by one of two different mindsets; either based in utter ignorance and wishful thinking, or nefarious and malicious manipulation and conning. The people lauding the wonderful beautified “universal healthcare” (which, btw, they lied to you about never wanting to implement during pre-Obama care con job that made the Health sector rich and the middle class poorer) do t ever actually account all the costs when discussing it, and I will just assume you are doing the same from a point of ignorance, and not intentional deception. Here is a representative example of a wonderful splendrous worker with universal healthcare in Europe. 1), as surveys here too show, for the same job, you’ll be making about 50-75% the salary of an American equivalent (see following points). 2) Your tax burden on that immensely lower income will be approaching 30% effective income tax (FYI, e.g., the 42% tax rat starts applying at €55,000, just for a reference point … and no, that is not a typo) 3) on that lower income and higher taxes amount, you then get to pay huge retirement taxes too, on the order of effectively approaching 20%, with heart wrenching and soul sucking outcomes when you see the “pension” people are given after a life of paying into an utterly incompetent and failed retirement system. For reference, think of paying into a retirement system at going on 20% of your income and then getting about 1/4 of your salary to live off in “retirement”. It’s sad and sick and immoral. If people had been able to simply invest their own money in a global fund, they would probably be swimming in money in retirement, but instead they were pillaged and plundered in order to give them a pittance in “retirement”. It’s really a morally bankrupted and depraved system. 4) so now that we’ve reduced your already lower income by around 50% from taxes and a con job retirement system, let’s talk about the health care system cost that will run you about €300 per month in employee costs every month just for a single person, not counting the employer contribution of another ~€900; again, for a single individual. And on top of that, you are also going to have copays to see the doctor (albeit about 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost in the USA, so you get to save $5-15), but you also get to go to a doctor for a prescription and a pharmacy to buy things like basic over the counter medications like ibuprofen .… that comes in blister packs of 20 you get “for free”(see tax burden and health insurance costs above for reference of level of “freeness”). Again, no, those are not typos or errors, they are very much representative examples. 4) gasoline is taxed at 100%, in most European countries or more, with talk of increasing it. And no, again, that is not a typo. For reference, in the USA gasoline is taxed at around the 20-25% range. The reason I mention that, is because it’s not only a taxation on mobility, it again sucks the disposable income of the lower income people dry. And none of that even goes into the fact that medical care is determined by the insurance that pulls typical insurance things where when it’s time to pay out all the sudden the medical care is deemed not necessary. The saddest thing about the health care cost debate is that it seems to be driven by a con job to trick people into a trap that will enslave them to authoritarian control even more without any benefits from it, if not only more detrimental effects like Obamacare that only served to drive up costs and then peg them at new levels that made health insurance companies and the medical sector richer, while Medicare fraud and pull pushing has run amok. I actually find it curious that especially this community would not realize that the ideal system is not a centralized monolith running on a con job and no backups, but a highly competitive decentralized system forced to be transparent and accountable. But I guess whatever is driving the centralization of power and control among the tech tyrant FAANGs, seems to have also latched onto people’s minds here maybe. Please excuse any errors because English is not my first language

pkaye 7y ago

That is partially because they are skilled workers. The guys who mow lawns in my bay area neighborhood can command hefty rates too. Of course health insurance remains an issue.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

Those snowplow workers will likely be employees, not contractors. The Canadian government really frowns on avoidance of payroll taxes. But due to Medicare etc, it's not that big of a deal whether a worker is a contractor or employee.

aianus 7y ago
The same payroll taxes are paid whether you’re self employed or employed. Including Uber drivers. You just pay both sides of the CPP and EI if you’re filing as self employed.