4 ms·

Where can I read on the rigged demos?

by hnaccy 7y ago

bbanyc 7y ago
https://www.businessinsider.com/mit-media-lab-personal-food-computers-dont-work-fake-staff-say-2019-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/mit-media-lab-personal-food-...
- seltzered_ 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. ""It's essentially a grow box with some sensors for collecting data," Cerqueira, a dietitian who worked as a project manager at the Open Agriculture Initiative for two years [...] The boxes were not air-tight, so staff couldn't control variables like the levels of carbon dioxide and even basic environmental factors like temperature and humidity, Cerqueira and the other person said. " Looking at https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/projects/ https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/pro... it looks like the food computer project was just one among several, though it might've been the more prioritized 'audacious goal' among them considering it's prominence on the main open ag site: https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/ https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/ The last paper I saw (2018-10-20) ( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-030-02683-7_79 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-030-02683-... ) on food computer version 2 is more about the building process of it, not so much on results yet. https://wiki.openag.media.mit.edu/faq https://wiki.openag.media.mit.edu/faq discusses the version differences. Finally, Caleb comments on the BI article here: https://forum.openag.media.mit.edu/t/can-we-get-a-comment/5186 https://forum.openag.media.mit.edu/t/can-we-get-a-comment/51... (sidebar: the food computer thing weirdly reminds me of reddit.com/r/spacebuckets )
  - makomk 7y ago
    The thing is, they didn't need to have a whistleblower to find out that the boxes couldn't control variables like the levels of carbon dioxide - they just had to read the latest paper published using them: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213918 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Apparently that level of control is planned for their currently-in-development larger scale facility. Also, I don't think the quotes about controlling those things even apply to the Personal Food Computer specifically - after reading the linked articles they're either forward-looking claims about the whole research that predate the PFC, or specifically refer to to the larger-scale equipment. On top of that, the headline claim that the "personal food computer" "simply doesn't work" seems to be outright untrue. I had a look and the designs seem to be pretty widely replicated and tested - everything from an MIT-supplied version of the latest design in a New York museum operated by unaffiliated volunteers to a homebrew version of an old foam-based design built from scratch by a Baltimore school using material from Lowes. Some versions do seem to be a little temperamental on the electronics side, to the point members of the team have advised people not to built v2 on the forum, but they do work and grow things. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the photoshoots and static displays were faked, though; turnaround time for a real grow is at least a month.
    - seltzered_ 7y ago
      Yeah, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether it's an effective solution, I'm not suggesting it doesn't work. It looks like some OSU students in Bend are have had success with it : https://twitter.com/ATBF_NPO https://twitter.com/ATBF_NPO https://www.aroundthebendfarms.org https://www.aroundthebendfarms.org
DonHopkins 7y ago
"My point, however, is more mundane: we have created a demo literally from smoke and mirrors, and the Corporate World bought it." -Hunter S Negroponte https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905450
paggle 7y ago
Rigged demos are everywhere. I raised a few million in VC with a rigged demo and then after the investor was on my board was really wrestling with how to tell them and readjust their expectations. Halfway into my first sentence they said “I know they’re all like that. How much of it was fake?” And then we moved on from there.
- jkestner 7y ago
  And what part is rigged? In the case of this food printer, sure I suppose it should be able to actually do what it claims is its breakthrough. But if I make a prototype of, say, a wallet that gives you haptic feedback to reflect your money moving digitally, is it rigged if it’s not currently in a manufacturable form, tethered to the lab somehow? No, because it was designed to 1) demonstrate a new user interface, and 2) spark conversation about the effects of dematerializing currency. Sometimes missed in talk of what research deserves to be funded, is that a valuable function of the Media Lab is to conduct the flow of ideas from science fiction to reality. And the projects fall all along that spectrum.
  - prairiecat 7y ago
    That's a rather slippery slope... While I do agree that producing thought-provoking technical demos has some (perhaps considerable) merit, the Media Lab still presents themselves as a research institute, not some creative agency making conceptual mockups/videos. When something comes out of the Media Lab (or any other MIT-affiliated organization) the expectation will be that even if the ideas may not be workable immediately, the biggest technical/scientific hurdles have been overcome, i.e., they're not pure science fiction. MIT has built up reputation and goodwill so the public gives them benefit of the doubt. Presenting half-baked, unworkable demos as research is to take advantage of (and exhaust) that goodwill, painstakingly cultivated over decades by the entire MIT community.

Where can I read on the rigged demos?

by hnaccy 7y ago

Where can I read on the rigged demos?

https://www.businessinsider.com/mit-media-lab-personal-food-computers-dont-work-fake-staff-say-2019-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/mit-media-lab-personal-food-...

seltzered_ 7y ago
Thanks for sharing this. ""It's essentially a grow box with some sensors for collecting data," Cerqueira, a dietitian who worked as a project manager at the Open Agriculture Initiative for two years [...] The boxes were not air-tight, so staff couldn't control variables like the levels of carbon dioxide and even basic environmental factors like temperature and humidity, Cerqueira and the other person said. " Looking at https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/projects/ https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/pro... it looks like the food computer project was just one among several, though it might've been the more prioritized 'audacious goal' among them considering it's prominence on the main open ag site: https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/ https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/open-agriculture-openag/ The last paper I saw (2018-10-20) ( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-030-02683-7_79 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-030-02683-... ) on food computer version 2 is more about the building process of it, not so much on results yet. https://wiki.openag.media.mit.edu/faq https://wiki.openag.media.mit.edu/faq discusses the version differences. Finally, Caleb comments on the BI article here: https://forum.openag.media.mit.edu/t/can-we-get-a-comment/5186 https://forum.openag.media.mit.edu/t/can-we-get-a-comment/51... (sidebar: the food computer thing weirdly reminds me of reddit.com/r/spacebuckets )
- makomk 7y ago
  The thing is, they didn't need to have a whistleblower to find out that the boxes couldn't control variables like the levels of carbon dioxide - they just had to read the latest paper published using them: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213918 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Apparently that level of control is planned for their currently-in-development larger scale facility. Also, I don't think the quotes about controlling those things even apply to the Personal Food Computer specifically - after reading the linked articles they're either forward-looking claims about the whole research that predate the PFC, or specifically refer to to the larger-scale equipment. On top of that, the headline claim that the "personal food computer" "simply doesn't work" seems to be outright untrue. I had a look and the designs seem to be pretty widely replicated and tested - everything from an MIT-supplied version of the latest design in a New York museum operated by unaffiliated volunteers to a homebrew version of an old foam-based design built from scratch by a Baltimore school using material from Lowes. Some versions do seem to be a little temperamental on the electronics side, to the point members of the team have advised people not to built v2 on the forum, but they do work and grow things. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the photoshoots and static displays were faked, though; turnaround time for a real grow is at least a month.
  - seltzered_ 7y ago
    Yeah, while I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether it's an effective solution, I'm not suggesting it doesn't work. It looks like some OSU students in Bend are have had success with it : https://twitter.com/ATBF_NPO https://twitter.com/ATBF_NPO https://www.aroundthebendfarms.org https://www.aroundthebendfarms.org

DonHopkins 7y ago

"My point, however, is more mundane: we have created a demo literally from smoke and mirrors, and the Corporate World bought it." -Hunter S Negroponte https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905450

paggle 7y ago

Rigged demos are everywhere. I raised a few million in VC with a rigged demo and then after the investor was on my board was really wrestling with how to tell them and readjust their expectations. Halfway into my first sentence they said “I know they’re all like that. How much of it was fake?” And then we moved on from there.

jkestner 7y ago
And what part is rigged? In the case of this food printer, sure I suppose it should be able to actually do what it claims is its breakthrough. But if I make a prototype of, say, a wallet that gives you haptic feedback to reflect your money moving digitally, is it rigged if it’s not currently in a manufacturable form, tethered to the lab somehow? No, because it was designed to 1) demonstrate a new user interface, and 2) spark conversation about the effects of dematerializing currency. Sometimes missed in talk of what research deserves to be funded, is that a valuable function of the Media Lab is to conduct the flow of ideas from science fiction to reality. And the projects fall all along that spectrum.
- prairiecat 7y ago
  That's a rather slippery slope... While I do agree that producing thought-provoking technical demos has some (perhaps considerable) merit, the Media Lab still presents themselves as a research institute, not some creative agency making conceptual mockups/videos. When something comes out of the Media Lab (or any other MIT-affiliated organization) the expectation will be that even if the ideas may not be workable immediately, the biggest technical/scientific hurdles have been overcome, i.e., they're not pure science fiction. MIT has built up reputation and goodwill so the public gives them benefit of the doubt. Presenting half-baked, unworkable demos as research is to take advantage of (and exhaust) that goodwill, painstakingly cultivated over decades by the entire MIT community.