4 ms·

I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. The invisible hand needs a vis

I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. The invisible hand needs a visible hand because two hands are better than one. I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now (assuming we police it in the interim). Eliminate borders, then eliminate around one trillion a year in needless defense spending, and all the sudden this capitalist system we've built has plenty of resources to provide for the many. Nations are the problem, not capitalism.

glial 7y ago
> I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now I wish I could share your optimism. It's hard for me to believe there will be any future that doesn't include environmental collapse.
- systematical 7y ago
  That's where we need to police it. Now maybe thats cap/trade, carbon tax, or whatever. Maybe its geoengineering. Remember this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy wasn't exactly environmentally friendly. This is a humanity problem. Not many people share my optimism, but humans have been pretty good about surviving so far.
  - southerntofu 7y ago
    > this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy (...) Despite the label, USSR/PRC can hardly be called communism. They are various forms of State-capitalism: all the institutions (wage slavery, prisons, secret police, industry, propaganda) remain that of any capitalist society. See "There is no communism in Russia" or "Trotsky protests too much" by Emma Goldman for historical context about why USSR vs US or Trotsky vs Staline are false dilemmas between tyrannic ideologies. > This is a humanity problem. Indeed, all empires (or "civilizations") share the same problems. Only by actually changing the structures of power can we try to achieve a different outcome. Although, it's arguably late to save our planet from capitalists / pretend-communists. These long-toothed vampires will NEVER stop until the last drop they can suck out of it. Already a million species are facing extinction. Yet it's business as usual. These psychopaths couldn't care less about other people or the planet they stand on. We as humans could do so much better...
    - Miner49er 7y ago
      Since we're talking about Orwell, it's worth mentioning the whole point of Animal Farm was to criticize the USSR for not being socialist.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
It sounds more like you never read anarchist writers.
southerntofu 7y ago
> I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I don't think "fun" is the word for anarchism. I mean, maybe you had a very privileged/singular experience of approaching anarchism from a theoretical standpoint. But the bloody repression faced by anarchists around the globe is not "fun". Don't get me wrong, i'm glad you had fun with rebellious ideas. There is fun to have in living in the moment and trying your best to fight injustice. I'm just slightly upset that you would consider what is the only hope for actual liberation for millions of people a simple fun youth concern. > I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. Can you elaborate? How does institutionalized injustice/violence "work well"? Where i'm from in France is pretty fucked up: we're millions living in poverty and facing police/fascist killings and beatings while a tiny elite eats caviar and drinks champagne in the fancy restaurants of Paris. (without even mentioning white supremacy and islamophobia/antisemitism) > Nations are the problem, not capitalism. Don't you think they're the two sides of the same coin? How could capitalist inequalities maintain themselves without a central State to exert violence against those who refuse this rule? How could a tyrannical regime maintain itself without sharing some of the benefits of exploitation with a (capitalist) elite?
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Can you elaborate? How does institutionalized injustice/violence "work well"? It could very well be that some institutionalized violence is necessary for society to work, and some injustice is inevitable in the process (humans being imperfect). If in your perfect anarchist society I was hell bent on smacking you down (and I was quite larger than you), would the society just let it happen, or would it employ some sort of "violence"? And if said society had some rules and/or specific people to handle those situations, wouldn't the violence be "institutionalized"? >How could capitalist inequalities maintain themselves without a central State to exert violence against those who refuse this rule? How could a tyrannical regime maintain itself without sharing some of the benefits of exploitation with a (capitalist) elite? Quite easily? We've had tyrannical regimes before capitalism two (feudal, asiastic, and several other forms). We even had tyrannical regimes promising the end of tyranny and capitalism (e.g. Stalinist USSR). Nothing to say we couldn't have a tyrannical regime promising anarchism as well. People can use all ideas/ideologies/regimes to serve their own purposes. And of course you don't need a central state to have inequalities or tyranny. A number of powerful groups that prey on less powerful ones is enough. They don't even have to be permanent, groups could assemble at will and at different configurations to prey on those less powerful (like e.g. barbaric tribes used to do) and then stop existing after they've succeeded.

glial 7y ago

> I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now I wish I could share your optimism. It's hard for me to believe there will be any future that doesn't include environmental collapse.

systematical 7y ago
That's where we need to police it. Now maybe thats cap/trade, carbon tax, or whatever. Maybe its geoengineering. Remember this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy wasn't exactly environmentally friendly. This is a humanity problem. Not many people share my optimism, but humans have been pretty good about surviving so far.
- southerntofu 7y ago
  > this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy (...) Despite the label, USSR/PRC can hardly be called communism. They are various forms of State-capitalism: all the institutions (wage slavery, prisons, secret police, industry, propaganda) remain that of any capitalist society. See "There is no communism in Russia" or "Trotsky protests too much" by Emma Goldman for historical context about why USSR vs US or Trotsky vs Staline are false dilemmas between tyrannic ideologies. > This is a humanity problem. Indeed, all empires (or "civilizations") share the same problems. Only by actually changing the structures of power can we try to achieve a different outcome. Although, it's arguably late to save our planet from capitalists / pretend-communists. These long-toothed vampires will NEVER stop until the last drop they can suck out of it. Already a million species are facing extinction. Yet it's business as usual. These psychopaths couldn't care less about other people or the planet they stand on. We as humans could do so much better...
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    Since we're talking about Orwell, it's worth mentioning the whole point of Animal Farm was to criticize the USSR for not being socialist.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

It sounds more like you never read anarchist writers.

southerntofu 7y ago

> I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I don't think "fun" is the word for anarchism. I mean, maybe you had a very privileged/singular experience of approaching anarchism from a theoretical standpoint. But the bloody repression faced by anarchists around the globe is not "fun". Don't get me wrong, i'm glad you had fun with rebellious ideas. There is fun to have in living in the moment and trying your best to fight injustice. I'm just slightly upset that you would consider what is the only hope for actual liberation for millions of people a simple fun youth concern. > I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. Can you elaborate? How does institutionalized injustice/violence "work well"? Where i'm from in France is pretty fucked up: we're millions living in poverty and facing police/fascist killings and beatings while a tiny elite eats caviar and drinks champagne in the fancy restaurants of Paris. (without even mentioning white supremacy and islamophobia/antisemitism) > Nations are the problem, not capitalism. Don't you think they're the two sides of the same coin? How could capitalist inequalities maintain themselves without a central State to exert violence against those who refuse this rule? How could a tyrannical regime maintain itself without sharing some of the benefits of exploitation with a (capitalist) elite?

coldtea 7y ago
>Can you elaborate? How does institutionalized injustice/violence "work well"? It could very well be that some institutionalized violence is necessary for society to work, and some injustice is inevitable in the process (humans being imperfect). If in your perfect anarchist society I was hell bent on smacking you down (and I was quite larger than you), would the society just let it happen, or would it employ some sort of "violence"? And if said society had some rules and/or specific people to handle those situations, wouldn't the violence be "institutionalized"? >How could capitalist inequalities maintain themselves without a central State to exert violence against those who refuse this rule? How could a tyrannical regime maintain itself without sharing some of the benefits of exploitation with a (capitalist) elite? Quite easily? We've had tyrannical regimes before capitalism two (feudal, asiastic, and several other forms). We even had tyrannical regimes promising the end of tyranny and capitalism (e.g. Stalinist USSR). Nothing to say we couldn't have a tyrannical regime promising anarchism as well. People can use all ideas/ideologies/regimes to serve their own purposes. And of course you don't need a central state to have inequalities or tyranny. A number of powerful groups that prey on less powerful ones is enough. They don't even have to be permanent, groups could assemble at will and at different configurations to prey on those less powerful (like e.g. barbaric tribes used to do) and then stop existing after they've succeeded.